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  1. #1
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    Is a javascript-based software forum really that bad?

    Hi,

    I am trying to push the jogl community to switch their software forum (current Nabble) to something better, more modern, usable and useful.

    I love Discourse and I proposed56 it, but javascript seems to be the biggest problem in order to be adopted

    In your opinion, is it really so? Which are the benefits of using it instead php?

    Is there a way in which we could use Discourse without Javascript? Or find somehow a compromise?

  2. #2
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    Javascript is (AS FACT) a client side language.
    Can't do a forum without server side language too.

    So i have no clue what exactly your question goes to
    I never ever read PM's unless it's an job offer. So save your time for regular questions in the forum. I never ever take friendship offers. We are not on facebook here.(It's stupid on facebook too). Friendship? Do i know you? Did we ever had a beer together? Thats really stupid. Sorry.

  3. #3
    Senior Coder deathshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labrar View Post
    Javascript is (AS FACT) a client side language.
    That hasn't been the entire case for about a decade now. node.js is a runtime of just Google's V8 javaScript engine on which a great many SERVER SIDE projects are based. It is the underlying component of most if not all major full stack JavaScript projects. nw.js and electron for example being full stack applications where v8 is used to run as an application with chrome as the app front-end. No separate browser needed. See editors like brackets and atom which are full applications built entirely with JavaScript that do NOT run in a browser!

    JavaScript on servers often being MAJOR projects using full on package management -- ever heard of NPM? Node Package Manager -- the "node" being part of "node.js".

    So pretty much you're a wee bit behind the times. This isn't 2007.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankMuller View Post
    I am trying to push the jogl community to switch their software forum (current Nabble) to something better, more modern, usable and useful.
    Might help if we had some clue what in blazes "jogl" is. I'm assuming you mean Java OpenGL? If so yeah, Nabble's a bit of a wonk with its NAML rubbish, but full stack JavaScript isn't the answer. They are PROBABLY using it because they can't afford to host their own data since (as I understand it) Nabble is a bit like disqus in terms of how it is hooked into a page -- which is why it's a bit of a middle finger to users who block scripting.

    Going full stack JavaScript probably isn't the answer for them -- does their hosting even provide it much less ALLOW for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankMuller View Post
    I love Discourse and I proposed it, but javascript seems to be the biggest problem in order to be adopted
    I'd sooner suck the business end of a shotgun than deal with Discourse just because all the posts just seem randomly slopped in any old way like a really crappy mailing list. I HATED mailing lists in their heyday, and wonder how the the blazes anyone still uses them or would want to recreate their USELESS approach to handling content. though maybe I just like categories that behave like categories. It is some of the BIGGEST garbage on the web and I cannot fathom how/why anybody likes it!

    But the real problem with full stack JavaScript for something like a forums is the shift in philosophy that ultimately results in telling large swaths of users to go **** themselves. BECAUSE the developer goes full scripttard on the back end, the front end is usually ALSO full scripttard, meaning that functionality is crippled to nonexistent when JavaScript is blocked, unavailable, etc. An increasingly common state as distrust for the tech continues to grow, bandwidth caps and overage charges are implemented by sleazy ISP's, etc, etc.. Simply put most of the people who would dive for full stack scripting don't know enough about HTML or CSS to make a public facing front-end. That's why mind-numbingly idiotic halfwit garbage like react-ui and angular were able to even come into being.

    There are ZERO advantages to using full stack JS over PHP, and since PHP 7 dropped in terms of performance PHP is now the clear winner in all but a handful of synthetic benchmark situations. PHP further comes out ahead because it is ubiquitous -- you can guarantee it exists on any decent hosting plan. Trying to get node.js support added to your hosting usually means the provider telling you to sod off, or having to have an unmanaged dedicated server or VPS where you DIY the installation. For a lot of projects that's not an option -- if it were, they probably wouldn't be using Nabble in the first place!

    Given their forum size, I'd probably be looking at something like SMF or myBB, though right now those are going full re-re too by slopping the train wreck of developer ineptitude that is jQuery into them. Right now I'm looking for a forum software that isn't total garbage out of the box, and coming up empty. 90% of what's out there still has their head wedged up 1997's rump on the out of box markup, the rest are so scripting reliant I would NEVER deploy them on a production website for speed, accessibility, usability, and sustainability concerns ALONE.
    I would rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned.
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  4. #4
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    Can't imagine. But i do some reserach
    Last edited by Labrar; 09-15-2017 at 12:03 PM.
    I never ever read PM's unless it's an job offer. So save your time for regular questions in the forum. I never ever take friendship offers. We are not on facebook here.(It's stupid on facebook too). Friendship? Do i know you? Did we ever had a beer together? Thats really stupid. Sorry.

  5. #5
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    Did some research and it's still as i said. Javascript is (AS FACT) a client side language.
    It cannot write something to a database on its own and it can't read SQL Statements on its own. Which is a good thing. Otherwise al site could be hacked easily.
    node.js can be a good and fast way of bridging (hope thats the right word) between Client and Server. But nothing more.

    Actually i was really afraid as you deathshadow told me, that JS isn't a clientlanguage only anymore. Because i believe a lot things you say. (But maybe i didn't understood you).
    When the day comes, that javascript can do, what i understood you'd described, i will stop using internet instantly. Because that will open gates for hackers and crackers.

    But now that i read about node.js, i wont use it ever use it.

    If i need to write serverside code, i go and write serverside code. Don't need a JS Lib to do that for me (because i hav to write my commands anyway). Don't know who really think node.js is useful.
    Last edited by Labrar; 09-24-2017 at 05:33 PM.
    I never ever read PM's unless it's an job offer. So save your time for regular questions in the forum. I never ever take friendship offers. We are not on facebook here.(It's stupid on facebook too). Friendship? Do i know you? Did we ever had a beer together? Thats really stupid. Sorry.

  6. #6
    Senior Coder deathshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labrar View Post
    Did some research and it's still as i said. Javascript is (AS FACT) a client side language.
    It cannot write something to a database on its own and it can't read SQL Statements on its own. Which is a good thing. Otherwise al site could be hacked easily.
    Then you haven't researced node.js, or any other standalone runtime environment based on V8. It is now JUST a language, that can be used server-side or client side.

    For example you want to access mysql server side, you npm in the mysql module, then do "var mysql=require('mysql');" and then var con=mysql.createconnction() plugging in the connection data. whilst yes, NPM is used to package in those connections, you have full access to anything any other server-side language would.

    https://www.npmjs.com/package/mysql

    The entire NPM project is based on using JavaScript server-side and/or as a standalone runtime wtih full package management -- much akin to how Java's JVM with a proper DE would work or something like .NET

    ... and on the whole it also SEEMS to be faster than Oracle's JVM now putting it in the same performance class as Dalvik (Google's private JVM) or PHP 7.2 with JIT. (an optional branch of PHP that's going to be a game changer when it drops as mainline)

    Hence the term "full stack JavaScript" which refers to running JS on both the back-end and the front-end. Client-side AND server-side.

    It is no longer JUST a client-side language. Far from it in fact. It's only when running it in a browser that the fancy bits go bye-bye. It can even be used for native application development. See nw.js and electron, as well as projects built on it like Atom or brackets -- programmers editors that behave JUST like they were native applications even though they are full stack JavaScript.

    Hell, the BROWSER I use -- Vivalid -- is for the most part a full stack JavaScript application. The browser UI runs in a fork of nw.js with the browser windows being standalone webframes; a "webframe" being an overglorified sandboxed iframe with more control. The underlying "master" JavaScript having full system access JUST like any other native application would. What do you think those "metro" (or whatever it is Microshaft is calling them this week) crapplets are built in?

    Google's V8 again performing the same job the .NET runtime, JVM, or Ruby/BASIC/Python/Perl interpreters would!

    If it didn't have all the same access, NPM packages like mysql, mongodb, etc, etc would be impossible.

    -- EDIT --

    ALL THAT SAID, the JavaScript that runs in your BROWSER, YES that is locked down for security reasons and has not been expanded with any of the functionality I mentioned. Many of the new classes and methods simply do not exist in it, and we can be thankful for that. LAST thing client-side JavaScript needs is direct local file access.

    But as a server-side runtime it's a whole different ballgame. Same language, different runtime environment with different access to things.

    As to node.js being 'useful' -- it's NO different than PHP's runtime or Java's JVM or .NET's runtime or the interpreters for languages like python or Perl. It just let's you use JavaScript instead of those languages in your application, not just in the UI.

    I'm not WILD about the option existing myself, but I can see the appeal in a number of cases of using the same language across the board instead of having to willy-nilly switch between languages "because".
    Last edited by deathshadow; 09-24-2017 at 07:29 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Okay. Thats what i've researched too. But again. What is the benefit of this?
    If i put all my sql and php stuff within a PHP File instead of using node.js, wont slow me down. Right?

    And i have more control about it. I scaned some of the node.js example scripts. Hell that looks like "couldn't be more complicated".

    It's (in my opionion) only a new bloated thing for things that can be done the same way by sticking on the Oldschool road.
    Maybe it's useful for huge projects. I have no clue. But for my needs absolutely nonsens.

    Anyway. Guess theres a reason for node.js as it seemed to be used so many times. But i didn't catched it yet.
    I never ever read PM's unless it's an job offer. So save your time for regular questions in the forum. I never ever take friendship offers. We are not on facebook here.(It's stupid on facebook too). Friendship? Do i know you? Did we ever had a beer together? Thats really stupid. Sorry.


 

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