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  1. #1
    Senior Coder jkd's Avatar
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    To all regular members

    Alright, everybody. Do this for me, count to 10?
    1, 2, 3, 4….8, yeah that's it, 8, 9, 10!

    Nice. Now, that wasn't so hard, no? Well, maybe. But moving on, let's try something else that shouldn't tax our brains too much. Comprende?

    Alright, here it goes. zeal. Lately, a lot of the members have gotten overzealous. Now, of course it is in the pursuit of righteousness and such. You know, save the kingdom of the Internet by preaching from the book of W3C and WAI, citing the second-coming of Mozilla, the false god that is Internet Explorer, etc, etc. It's all good, really! However, it takes a while for a web developer to incorporate those into his or her arsenal of talent. And all these acronyms look a little scary after a while; the sheep must be gently guided along the path of W3C, not shot out of a cannon pointed somewhere near developer zen.

    Just because a new member asks about something blasphemous to our good book, don't say that it is blasphemy, read off the good gospel, and leave. Instead, maybe explain (or link to, even better) why invalid markup can cause numerous problems, why web standards are superior to proprietary implementations, and so far forth. Yes, colored scrollbars are a crime against humanity, and they probably eat babies when you're not paying attention, but an explanation as to why the baby-eating devil beast is evil instead of pulling out your Eric Cartman voice saying "THAT'S A BAD DEVELOPER! BAD DEVELOPER!" is infinitely more useful and encouraging towards new members.

    My very first post here (way back when the forums were hosted on wsabstract.com) was cross-posted, asking how to redirect two frames with one link. I didn't get a "THAT'S A BAD DEVELOPER! FRAMES ARE INACCESSIBLE, DON'T BOTHER! OH, AND YOU'RE AN EVIL EVIL PERSON FOR CROSSPOSTING!" response. Instead, I got a solution, and a reminder that cross-posting was not useful. Now, WAI hadn't taken off at the time, but if accessibility was the biggest buzzword then, I'm sure I still would have gotten the same response, along with a reminder that frames can hurt web accessibility.

    That's all folks.

    Your partner in crime,
    jkd

  2. #2
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    Well said indeed .. I'll add a little adendum:

    I know it's difficult, when you come across the same (seemingly stupid) questions time after time, to remember that in fact there are no stupid questions - there is only knowledge, or the lack of it. Please don't critisize someone for not knowing what you think of as obvious - it's only obvious to you, because you already know.

    But if, like me, your patience is limited, and you just can't be bothered to explain why tables for layout are not a good idea for the 50th time this year ... well don't. Say nothing. If you can't give a useful response, then don't respond at all.

    And if you come across a comment from someone else that seems pissy, please refrain from answering in a similarly pissy tone. It only increases the overall amount of pissiness on the boards, and nobody wants that.
    "Why bother with accessibility? ... Because deep down you know that the web is attractive to people who aren't exactly like you." - Joe Clark

  3. #3
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    I'm really glad you have bought this up. Many people have been especially nasty/unhelpful lately, and you know who you are.
    There are so many examplesat the moment that I almost feel like following certain members around just to make peace after they reign fire and brimstone onto newbie posts.
    Play nice, karma is your friend.
    Andrew

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


    Left Justified

  4. #4
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    Re: To all regular members

    Originally posted by jkd
    My very first post here (way back when the forums were hosted on wsabstract.com) was cross-posted, asking how to redirect two frames with one link. I didn't get a "THAT'S A BAD DEVELOPER! FRAMES ARE INACCESSIBLE, DON'T BOTHER! OH, AND YOU'RE AN EVIL EVIL PERSON FOR CROSSPOSTING!" response. Instead, I got a solution, and a reminder that cross-posting was not useful. Now, WAI hadn't taken off at the time, but if accessibility was the biggest buzzword then, I'm sure I still would have gotten the same response, along with a reminder that frames can hurt web accessibility.
    Although I read lots of posts per day and can't remember every single one, I can't recall a time where anyone has slammed down on someone for cross-posting. Usually it is a friendly reminder, so I dunno where you are getting that.

    Although I've been guilty partially myself every once in a while for supposedly "not helping" but I have been watching myself to make sure I don't make it a habit. Let's all try to be nicer from now on then let's move on with life. The past has already happened, the present is the gift, and the future hasn't happened.
    Last edited by oracleguy; Feb 20th, 2004 at 06:24 AM.
    OracleGuy

  5. #5
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    Re: Re: To all regular members

    Originally posted by oracleguy
    [B]Although I read lots of posts per day and can't remember every single one, I can't recall a time where anyone has slammed down on someone for cross-posting. Usually it is a friendly reminder, so I dunno where you are getting that.
    My first week here I had a cross-posting affair, a spam affair and a bump affair. It was mostly because I was lost, not because I had bad intentions. I just didn't understand how the board was functionning. ""A 'rules' link? Hey I was way too busy figuring out what were all these links displayed on the index page ('index' didn't mean that much at that time)""--> was pretty much my relationship with CF. I always keep that in mind when I see someone cross-posting or whatever else. It is probably just a little mistake, nothing bad. Even if I am far from being one of the helpful members on this board, I try to bring a good mood with me when I post. Anyways, the purpose of my post is to point out that when a newcomer just registered and is posting his first questions, it can be a bit scarry to read comments like those jkd pointed out. So I will second what he said. Now when I have a question, I just use the search engine and I find the answer. Probably that many of the newcomers will also behave like that in a few months if they like the mood around here and want to be considered as nice members of this community. Just my 2$.

  6. #6
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    Re: Re: Re: To all regular members

    Originally posted by jeskel
    Probably that many of the newcomers will also behave like that in a few months if they like the mood around here and want to be considered as nice members of this community. Just my 2$.
    Nail.Hit.Head.You.

    BTW, how come your opinion is worth $2, and mine is just my 2cents ?

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


    Left Justified

  7. #7
    Senior Coder Nightfire's Avatar
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    Inflation

    I'm also jumping on the jkd train. If you're looking at someone's site and you see the evil font tag, don't just scream at the person for having it, show another way to do fonts and get in an excorcist

  8. #8
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    I have to go with Brothercake here - I simply get tired of certain types of questions, and (often after having held a few lessons on it in some thread or other) I often feel like that subject is now dead. There's no reason for me to go there again. Which is the reason I've said very little in the HTML & CSS forum for the last couple of weeks.

    That said, I know I often fall to exactly the behavior Jason is complaining against. It's hard to stay away from it. I try, though.



    Then again, there's another thing. I often answer quite short posts for certain problems (mostly JavaScript), sometimes only the solution without any comments. However, when it comes to markup I do try to teach people how to help themselves. That's why I have those documentation threads, that's why I more often than not give links to specifications or DTD instead of just answering the questions.
    liorean <[[email protected]]>
    Articles: RegEx evolt wsabstract , Named Arguments
    Useful Threads: JavaScript Docs & Refs, FAQ - HTML & CSS Docs, FAQ - XML Doc & Refs
    Moz: JavaScript DOM Interfaces MSDN: JScript DHTML KDE: KJS KHTML Opera: Standards

  9. #9
    Senior Coder A1ien51's Avatar
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    The whole idea behind the thread I started was on this same issue, it is amazing how the response is different. []=[] []\/[]
    Tech Author [Ajax In Action, JavaScript: Visual Blueprint]

  10. #10
    Senior Coder missing-score's Avatar
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    It may be different because you started of your thread on a very negative note whereas this one was a positive reminder to members. It will effect how people respond to your topic!

  11. #11
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    The whole idea behind the thread I started was on this same issue, it is amazing how the response is different. []=[] []\/[]
    I think its because you dont hold a mod gun. Regardless I am glad that this issue is being addressed.

  12. #12
    Senior Coder Nightfire's Avatar
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    Well I have to say, ever since these rants some people have tried to make thir negative posts more reasonable. The way things are going right now I can say that it won't be long till people actually show reasons why they said the respsonse they did. I hope it's not too long anyway

  13. #13
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    Yeah, ever since the ArcticFox discussions about fonts and coloured scrollbars in <http://codingforums.com/showthread.p...threadid=32535> <http://codingforums.com/showthread.p...threadid=31231>, as well as the short argument in <http://codingforums.com/showthread.p...threadid=32520>, I've been trying to keep the zealotry to a minimum - especially since whatever lacks I find in his arguments, he's right about this part:
    1) HELP by answering the original question
    2) SUGGEST what should/shouldn't be done
    3) PROVIDE a reason for #2
    4) VOLUNTEER your personal opinion, last.
    And I think I'm not the only one of our regulars that has tried to be a better helper since those posts, either.
    Last edited by liorean; Feb 22nd, 2004 at 02:56 PM.
    liorean <[[email protected]]>
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    Useful Threads: JavaScript Docs & Refs, FAQ - HTML & CSS Docs, FAQ - XML Doc & Refs
    Moz: JavaScript DOM Interfaces MSDN: JScript DHTML KDE: KJS KHTML Opera: Standards

  14. #14
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    "The great scrollbar/font flame war of 2004..."
    That wasn't exactly the best start to the new year, but the current flood of "Play Friendly!" threads is making up for it

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


    Left Justified

  15. #15
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    Thank you jkd for bringing this up.

    I haven't visited the forums in a few weeks because of this very thing...

    -Rich


 
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