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  1. #1
    Senior Coder A1ien51's Avatar
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    How hard is it to help out? RANT

    All I want to know is why are people here not answering people's questions but causing debates? People need to learn how to program the basics and who cares if it is not the best way to do things.

    I see so many new people to programming that ask how to do things and the responce is: Why are you doing it that way? Why don't you do it this way since it is the only way to do it?

    I learned JavaScript through trial and error. I began 6 years ago with only knowing very basic things from my TI-85 calc. I spent months learning this and now I am programming for a living.

    I learned from my mistakes as time went on, but if I would start today and come here to ask a question I would not return since members here that have been on the board since WA days are becoming very anal.

    If you want an example look at this thread...
    http://www.codingforums.com/showthre...threadid=33596

    Yes it is okay to make your point, but make your point and give the person their answer they are looking for. How hard is it to do these things? The world does not learn perfection at the start, it takes time to get there.

    No one will have there ages XHTML compliant in the first pass. Heck most new people have no clue what XHTML is so do not go insane if it has a few mistakes. Point them out. Show them tutorials on this. Do not throw a hissy fit and say: "I will not even talk about your page til it gets validated" Why the heck did you even bother to push the reply button if you are not going to help?

    Stop wasting people's time with ethical debates and give them a helping hand. Show them the steps, give he what they want and point them in the right direction.

    Think I wanted to become a moderator here, but with the way that members act here, I do not think I would want my name to appear on the list. Yes I do not post here like I did on the past, but I have a job and I moderate on a professional board.

    Eric
    Tech Author [Ajax In Action, JavaScript: Visual Blueprint]

  2. #2
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    I could not agree more. I have noticed this a lot in the html sections.

  3. #3
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    "I will not even talk about your page til it gets validated"
    Although 'we' rarely say this, I wouldn't blame anyone that did. Validation 9 times out of 10 finds the problem for you, and if you still have problems, come back and say so, and then you'll get real answers. Mark Pilgrim agrees.

    I always make it a habit to explain why I'm saying some things. Sometimes, I feel I've said it so many times that I don't bother, but I nearly always regret it. Semantics and standards can take time to explain, so sometimes I link to previous posts. Rarely will I never explain my reasoning.

    We're not saying that our way is the only way, we're saying our way is far and away the best way, and any other ways are just a waste of time. Not because we're intent on world domination, but because it's the truth.

    No, the world will not learn perfection on the first path, but if we point out the mistakes, they fix them, then that's one step toward a better future for all.

    There's a lot more to be said on this subject, but I'll let others say it. I wouldn't explain it very well anway
    David House - Perfect is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. (Antoine de St. Exupery).
    W3Schools | XHTML Validator | CSS Validator | Colours | Typography | HTML&CSS FAQ | Go get Mozilla Now | I blog!

  4. #4
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    You both have valid points, let me try and make an analogy to explain my opinion on it.

    Okay let's say you have a car that is pretty run of the mill, econo-box or something. You put premium gas in (91 octane) however the car's timing is designed for regular (87). The car will certainly run, the only thing is that all the extra octane is going to just go right out the exhaust and serve no purpose except waste your money and cause higher emmissions. So if your a gas station attendant and this person rolls up in their rice burner Civic and asks for premium and you can tell the car isn't modded, do you let them know that it is incorrect to be putting premium in or do you just ignore it and put the gas in? I think you should mention it, don't insult the person's intellegence over it or anything--be tactful but help them out.

    If someone asks about something and they are using a less efficient method or such, it is important to point that out but equally important is to point the person in the right direction nevertheless (in most cases). Like the thread you posted--yes people didn't help a whole bunch, which they should have, but they also pointed out potential problems in his method that he may not have considered.
    OracleGuy

  5. #5
    Senior Coder A1ien51's Avatar
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    I do not mind if people tell them of the potential problems, but no one would give an answer. I do not have the time to look for old threads that do not have answers because people just rant and rave about not doing it right.

    It just seems like the people here that know things act like they are too good for newbies. There is threads in other forums where people are pissed due to the responces.

    Do I really care about this? No since it is not my site and I have no say on what goes here. I thought I would bring up a point.

    If I acted this way on the boards I moderate on I would not have a job there. I love to help people. It would just be nice to see others help people out and gve them what they need and tell them what is wrong. Just do not say what is wrong and nothing else.

    Everyone learns from their mistakes.

    Eric
    Tech Author [Ajax In Action, JavaScript: Visual Blueprint]

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by me'

    I always make it a habit to explain why I'm saying some things. Sometimes, I feel I've said it so many times that I don't bother, but I nearly always regret it. Semantics and standards can take time to explain, so sometimes I link to previous posts. Rarely will I never explain my reasoning.
    He's right. Upon joining this forum I was incredibly grateful for David (me') and David (liorean) always taking the time to explain why they were recommending different approaches when I posted issues.
    I have tried to follow their lead, as you can't win people over with pith and vinegar. (whateva the hell 'pith' is....)

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


    Left Justified

  7. #7
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    Re: How hard is it to help out? RANT

    A1ien51,

    Your post is realy amazing me.
    <<<]... People need to learn how to program the basics and who cares if it is not the best way to do things.>>>
    I do. Employers do. Users do. The only reason why i spend much time aswering posts is because i hope that the overall quality of developped site will increase a bit.
    What sort of place is this then, in your opinion? A litle dump to score a quick fix ?

    <<<I see so many new people to programming that ask how to do things and the responce is: Why are you doing it that way? Why don't you do it this way since it is the only way to do it?>>>
    So these aren't valid questions? I asked that sort of questions a lott, and in most cases, threadstarters agree and the problems seem to disappear ...

    <<<I learned JavaScript through trial and error. I began 6 years ago with only knowing very basic things from my TI-85 calc. I spent months learning this and now I am programming for a living.>>>
    You stress a lot that you learn the hard way, from your own mistakes. I've learned a lott from other peoples mistakes, and from people that pointed out common errors and pitfall + ways to solve/avoid them. Maybe some of us are truing to do the same here. I don't blame them for that, and i dont see why i shouldn't point out mistakes, misconceptions, disasters-waiting-to happen etc.

    <<<I learned from my mistakes as time went on, but if I would start today and come here to ask a question I would not return since members here that have been on the board since WA days are becoming very anal.

    If you want an example look at this thread...
    http://www.codingforums.com/showthr...&threadid=33596>>>
    I'm sad to read that. Although i don't immedeately see what's so horribly wrong with the posts in that thread. I think that all people that responded had a point, and although they didn't offer a sollution, that doesn't mean there responses are worthless.

    <<<Yes it is okay to make your point, but make your point and give the person their answer they are looking for. How hard is it to do these things? The world does not learn perfection at the start, it takes time to get there.>>>
    I don't agree. Is someone is making a fuss to do something useless, then you don't need to supply an answer ... In your example thread for instance, the whole validation attempt is simply pointless so i wouldn't bother replying to that --> so that wount upset people and it's not a good attitude either, but i got tiered of people getting frustrated because they didn't get exactly what they ask for.
    Perfection and valid or efficient code have nothing to do with eachother. Coding has a lott to do with knowing your codingrules and sticking to them. You might as well get your codingpractices right from the start on. It's not easier to first just mess a bit about and then later, when whatever time has come, learn it the right way. It's just wasting time and. So i don't exactly concider that a an advisable practice

    <<<No one will have there ages XHTML compliant in the first pass. Heck most new people have no clue what XHTML is so do not go insane if it has a few mistakes. Point them out. Show them tutorials on this. Do not throw a hissy fit and say: "I will not even talk about your page til it gets validated" Why the heck did you even bother to push the reply button if you are not going to help?>>>
    As said before: never seen that happen. I don't even see much people stressing on using only XHTM code. I do see a lot of posed code inside replys that are XHTML with a small note that the code may look strange but ...

    <<<Stop wasting people's time with ethical debates and give them a helping hand. Show them the steps, give he what they want and point them in the right direction.>>>
    I don't agree at all that you should give people what they want. I think that it's a big advantage if people point out the better alternatives instead. I don't waste my time helping people writing pointless code or taking a 'guaranteed to fail' approach on a task.
    There was a member here with a sig like "To a man with only a hamer in his toolbox, every problem looks like a nail". If people come ask for a bigger/other hammer to get that screw in some hardwood, then i'll tell them to use a screwdriver.
    What's the problem with that? If you wanna give them a bigger hammer just because they asked for it, then go ahead. I'll make sure to reply how wrong it is to take such an approach, even if this frustrates all other partys.

    <<<Think I wanted to become a moderator here, but with the way that members act here, I do not think I would want my name to appear on the list.>>>
    That will solve a lott ! Maybe as a moderator, you could stop some of the behaviour that you see as 'non-constructive' or 'frustrating'. What else did you think that a moderators role is.

    <<< Yes I do not post here like I did on the past, but I have a job and I moderate on a professional board. >>>
    What is 'a professional board'? Is that a board where they don't care about standards, efficient code, right use of techniques and where they give you whatever you ask for? What's the relevance of why you don't post here as often and wether you are a mod somewhere else?
    I don't post as often as i sometimes used to, just because i'm tiered of people that refuse to learn something the good way, and that are just intrested in solving there one particular problem without understanding what caused it or what a better approach would be. I see this board more as a place to learn, then to get some free code or free debugging.

    And that is why i choose to reply to the post i feel replying to, with the advice and sollution i think is the most fit , even if it's not 'what they want'. If you have a differnt approach, then that is just fine. You do realise that there is noone stopping you to give the advice and sollution they asked for, regardless of what other people posted ?
    If i would have more time AND if i would think that people appreciate it, then i would rewrite a lott of code that is posted here, into valid, more efficient code, or even rewrite it using a better approach. But they often behave as little children and feel humiliated because there 5 lines of code contained about 10 bugs.

    Maybe have a look at http://www.codingforums.com/showthre...highlight=code to see how some other people react when there code is ripped a part and 'they get told the better way'. It's often not as much the 'anal response' that shuts them up, it's in most cases their own ego that makes them blind for the truth, that frustrates them and makes them stick with 'their way'.


    And besides that, in the forums i frequent, i don't see that many unsolved problems. From your post, i almost get the impression that it is completely the oposite; as if people are frequently just nagging about standards and good coding and leave the problems unsolved.
    If the problem can be solved, it gets solved. And if some people get frustrated in the proces, because they get told they chould change a few things, then that is their problem. You can't expect us to help people, but don't mention to them that there code is pointless, buggy, unefficient etc. Most people invest their time here, because they hope that other people will learn something from it. Not to just patch up someone else his buggy code.

  8. #8
    Senior Coder A1ien51's Avatar
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    My whole point in this thread is that people around here lately have not been answering questions they have been doing debates saying that is not the way to do it and do not give a solution for the real way.

    Heck I do all of my validation on server side at work. I know that is the only way to do it, but I still will show people how to do it on client side.

    What is a professional board. I moderate on Javaranch.com where the users are required to give their real name. Most people that post questions there are people that code for a living. The website is up for the Jolt award for the second year in a row. I answer questions there with the answer they want and I tell them what is wrong. That is what I feel is missing here.

    Yes I think people should learn the right wy but you should guide them no just give a fishing pole with no hook. I feel sorry for some people around here. I know I can have anal responces to people but certain people seem to make that a daily occurnace.

    There are other people on this board that agree with me, but they are not going to speak up sonce they do not want there name to be thought of.

    I am sorry for making the world horrible by giving answers that do not meet DOM specs. I am sorry for helping people getting the code to not work in browsers they never even heard of. I am sorry for giving a rats behind about anything.

    All I can do is just laugh and go on with my daily work...
    Tech Author [Ajax In Action, JavaScript: Visual Blueprint]

  9. #9
    Senior Coder missing-score's Avatar
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    Re: How hard is it to help out? RANT

    Originally posted by A1ien51
    All I want to know is why are people here not answering people's questions but causing debates? People need to learn how to program the basics and who cares if it is not the best way to do things.
    I can see your point, but when I started programming I wish I had had someone telling me where I was doing things wrong, or if there was a more efficient way to do it! Why learn and then correct yourself, takes 3 times as long!


    I learned from my mistakes as time went on, but if I would start today and come here to ask a question I would not return since members here that have been on the board since WA days are becoming very anal.
    That is of course, your opinion. Id say this forum has to be one of the more helpful ones online. Its the only forum i come to for help.

    No one will have there ages XHTML compliant in the first pass. Heck most new people have no clue what XHTML is so do not go insane if it has a few mistakes. Point them out. Show them tutorials on this. Do not throw a hissy fit and say: "I will not even talk about your page til it gets validated" Why the heck did you even bother to push the reply button if you are not going to help?
    Like 'me, I disagree. Validate then ask questions. If you cant get it to validate, then make a thread asking for help on validating the code!

    Stop wasting people's time with ethical debates and give them a helping hand. Show them the steps, give he what they want and point them in the right direction.
    I agree with this, but I think if someone asks a question then they should be willing to let it open to debate, they will be likley to improve their final product.


    I know I have repeated some stuff similar to what raf has said, but I feel its important, and I agree with his post. Now when I post replies I try and explain why I am instructing a user in a particular way, as it helps them learn, so that next time they wont need to ask for help.

  10. #10
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    Re: How hard is it to help out? RANT

    Originally posted by A1ien51
    All I want to know is why are people here not answering people's questions but causing debates? People need to learn how to program the basics and who cares if it is not the best way to do things.

    <snip />

    Eric
    When your 12 year old kid asks you "Daddy, where can I get some pot?" do you answer the question, or say/explain why pot is bad for you???
    Certain knowledge requires certain amount of maturity in order to be used without harm (to self or others). Answering a person who have no idea about web how to open new windows, make 10 level nested table work, etc is not help but disservice. By answering a question you assume a role of an educator, and fail in that role if you do not make a judgement whether the student is capable of using the knowledge you provide.

    Learning right from the beginning is way more efficient than having to relearn later. If one wants to excell in a trade, the correct fundamentals are paramount to success.

    Helping and being nice are two independent things. If someone needs approval and reassuarance, sorry, they are at the wrong place. I suggest www.shrinksonline.com or www.buildingselfesteem.org .

    If someone wants to be respected, they should show their respect first by reading posting guidelines and doing their homework (in the broad meaning) before screaming for help.

    And if someone is used to having everything in life being sugar-coated for them and gets offended when the truth is served straight-up, that is not my problem.

    Hope this answers your question.
    Last edited by Vladdy; Feb 20th, 2004 at 08:48 PM.
    Vladdy | KL
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  11. #11
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    Very, Very well said Vladdy.

    Basscyst
    Helping to build a bigger box. - Adam Matthews

  12. #12
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    good post vladdy, although some people go on anti-standard crusades soemtimes which is even more confusing.
    photoshop too expensive? use the GIMP! www.gimp.org


 

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