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mbaker
Jan 23rd, 2010, 07:49 PM
When would be a good time to switch to using HTML 5?

If you already use it what has been your experience?

I know there are validators available, but what I would really like is a validator that gives warnings when parts of HTML 5 that are not yet implemented by the majority of browsers are being used. Do you know of any such?

I know that there are scripts available to plug the gaps, but I'd rather do without, and just use the subset of HTML 5 that is already supported.

Michael.

VIPStephan
Jan 23rd, 2010, 08:11 PM
When would be a good time to switch to using HTML 5?


When it’s officially released and
when it’s supported by a majority of applications.




If you already use it what has been your experience?

Barely any browser has implemented many features yet.



I know there are validators available, but what I would really like is a validator that gives warnings when parts of HTML 5 that are not yet implemented by the majority of browsers are being used. Do you know of any such?


Do you know of any program that validates semantic code? Probably not because there is no psychic program yet.
Browser vendors can and will implement features whenever they like and browsers are in constant development (except of IE :D) so there’s no way for a program to know what version of which browser has implemented what feature of which scripting language.



I know that there are scripts available to plug the gaps, but I'd rather do without, and just use the subset of HTML 5 that is already supported.


Just put <!DOCTYPE html> in the beginning of your document and you have HTML 5.

Apostropartheid
Jan 23rd, 2010, 08:14 PM
What, you mean like all of it? Even partial HTML 5 support is far off. The browser vendors can't even agree on a video codec and Microsoft isn't even near adding the tentative support that other browsers have.

mbaker
Jan 24th, 2010, 05:46 PM
On further investigation MediaWiki have been experimenting with HTML5 - see http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/HTML5 - While they are not currently using HTML5 it looks like they might soon.

In a response to a blog post on HTML 5, Keri Henare - http://simplebits.com/notebook/2009/08/31/html5-2/#comment-11795 - uses the term HTML 4.5 to describe a subset of HTML 5 that is already implemented by all browsers. This subset is elegantly described by Peter Davison of Legend Scrolls at http://www.legendscrolls.co.uk/webstandards/htmlsubset

As far as I can tell (quick read, without making an item by item comparison) the subset is equivalent, or approximately equivalent to (x)HTML 4 Transitional without the deprecated presentational elements and attributes (but includes non presentational deprecated attributes, such as <ol start="">) plus the embed element. Also equivalent to (x)HTML 4 Strict plus non presentational deprecated attributes plus the embed element.

[While the embed element is discouraged in favour of object, in practice we can't do with out it at present.]

I'm quite aware that just changing the doctype to <!DOCTYPE html> will convert any (x)HTML document to HTML5 and if it was valid (x)HTML 4 it will (or very likely will) be valid HTML 5. [Even better is that some invalid (x)HTML 4 will be valid HTML5 as HTML5 has less required attributes.]

As the subset is almost perfectly aligned to the set of HTML elements and attributes that I restrict my self to using, what I'd like to find is an HTML5 validator that warns if any features beyond the subset [as defined by Peter Davison] are being used.

[I'm aware that I've made statements that assume that HTML5 is fixed. I know it's not, but at this stage major changes seem unlikely, and if I was a betting man I'd be willing to bet that any statements I've made about HTML5 (that are accurate now) will be accurate when it is released.]

I'd be interested to know if anyone here has started using HTML5? If so what has your experience been?

Apostropartheid
Jan 24th, 2010, 08:04 PM
If you're not using HTML5 semantic elements, then you're cheating and shouldn't bother switching the DTD at all.

There is no point to this HTML 4.5--it's HTML 4.01 with the wrong DTD. It's an excuse to say you're using HTML 5, and isn't compliant. It may validate, but it doesn't even approximate the spirit and intent of the HTML 5 standard. If you're really intent on doing it like this, use the HTML 4.01 DTD to validate and then change it to the HTML 5 one.

I personal use the <!doctype html> prefix for quick documents, like example code here, because I don't want to type out the full DTD. I do not in a production environment.

Hang on, I get it...you use both the HTML 5 elements and the HTML 4.01? I see. But it's still pointless, in my opinion. The whole point in HTML 5 is to remove all these superfluous elements. Putting them back in again is fundamentally wrong, in my opinion.

drhowarddrfine
Jan 24th, 2010, 08:24 PM
I have one ecommerce app that we turned on last week that's a complete use of html5, at least as far as you can use new html5 elements. If one wants to wait before a spec reaches completion before using it, good luck with that. CSS2.1 didn't reach candidate recommendation till about 2 years ago and I don't think any of us avoided CSS before then. I don't know anyone in my circle who isn't using html5.

As far as IE is concerned, IE can be hacked to make things work just like we would with IE6 and CSS but somewhat easier but we don't use <video>, <svg>, <canvas>, or anything modern that an IE user would miss.

That said, there's no reason not to stick with html4.01. There's a lot of grumbling among high profile users about the whatwg and I can understand why some question whether html5 will see the light of day. At one time I thought such talk was silly (of course it will come out one day) but sometimes I wonder if it will go the way of xhtml2.

As an experiment, I'm taking a few months to take that same ecommerce site and rewrite it all as a strictly XML application. After 3 weeks so far, I don't understand why ALL web sites aren't done with XML and why XML hasn't progressed in browsers further than it already is.

Dormilich
Jan 25th, 2010, 07:56 AM
long time, no see.

As an experiment, I'm taking a few months to take that same ecommerce site and rewrite it all as a strictly XML application. After 3 weeks so far, I don't understand why ALL web sites aren't done with XML and why XML hasn't progressed in browsers further than it already is.

to the point of XHTML – it is not supported by IE. and XML as such does not have styling, which would make HTML coding for the beginner a real pain (partly because there are no default styles, partly because it needs to be well-formed (HTML is way more forgiving than XML, and if you validate your XML, you’re prompted for every error you make))

VIPStephan
Jan 25th, 2010, 08:50 AM
to the point of XHTML – it is not supported by IE. and XML as such does not have styling, which would make HTML coding for the beginner a real pain (partly because there are no default styles, partly because it needs to be well-formed (HTML is way more forgiving than XML, and if you validate your XML, you’re prompted for every error you make))

Who said that “beginners” should be able to create websites? I think the internet would be much cleaner and less spammed if only professionals (or amateurs with decent knowledge/skills) would be able to deal with it.
But whatever – this ain’t gonna happen anyway.

Dormilich
Jan 25th, 2010, 09:51 AM
Who said that “beginners” should be able to create websites?

I guess the web wouldn’t be where it is today without that.


I think the internet would be much cleaner and less spammed if only professionals (or amateurs with decent knowledge/skills) would be able to deal with it.

that’s only too true …

Mit sozialistischem Gruß *gg*

drhowarddrfine
Jan 25th, 2010, 03:13 PM
long time, no see.What are you doing here? :)


to the point of XHTML – it is not supported by IE.Yes, but I wasn't talking about xhtml.
and XML as such does not have stylingYou can apply stylesheets to XML just like HTML.


<?xml-stylesheet type="text/css" href="mycss.css"?>


which would make HTML coding for the beginner a real painI agree with Stephen about this but also agree the web wouldn't be what it is today, which may/may not be a good thing.

Dormilich
Jan 25th, 2010, 03:39 PM
What are you doing here? :)
I got bored on a friday.

drhowarddrfine
Jan 25th, 2010, 04:01 PM
Yes. Elsewhere things have been slow.