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  1. #1
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    Review- http://vicf23.freelinuxhost.com

    Hi

    I've been doing this site for my church, and I wanted to know what you guys thought of the layout of the site. I know that some of the pages aren't complete yet, as I don't have the content for them yet.

    http://vicf23.freelinuxhost.com

    Thanks!

  • #2
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    I looked at the homepage of the site on Firefox0.8 with a resolution of 800x600. As far as I know, 800x600 is not that uncommon.

    As for the layout, (I'm guessing that I'm seeing roughly what you have intended) I find the left menu images compete with the large image of the church on the right. My eyes are not led from place to place on the page but jump around wondering what to look at and getting distracted.

    As you know because of the tiny font phrase "This site designed to be viewed at a resolution of 1024x768 or higher." at the bottom of your page, one has a horizontal scroll at 800x600. This sentence and scroll seem needless. Try recoding by using relative widths instead of fixed so that the page can be viewed by all - seems a little more welcoming, don't you think? It would mean resizing the top two images ... you might think about using text for "Trinity Lutheran Church" rather than an image and just have the round image of the steeple (?) at the left top side. You could use CSS borders to put a wide blue line below the name of the church.

    The same goes for the "Welcome" image. I would use text instead of an image.

    The "announcements" image is covering some of the text.

    You have a number of coding errors. Plug your URL into
    http://www.htmlhelp.org/tools/validator/
    to find them.

    Hope that helps.

  • #3
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    I feel so dirty.
    Why not go find out what those little tags actually mean?

    Edit: Offensive material removed
    Last edited by hemebond; 08-16-2004 at 03:24 AM.

  • #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by hemebond
    I feel so dirty. Firstly because it's a church site, secondly because the code is so bad.

    Why not go find out what those little tags actually mean?
    Play nice -- we're help to help users by making them feel welcome and teaching them how to advance their skills... this doesn't mean tough love tactics to make people feel dumb. We were all once starting out. Above all, this should have nothing at all to do with your religious opinion; which should be kept to your chat room discussions, not here. That being said, I don't feel that was an opinion at all -- an opinion would have been a point of view with debatable ideas in tow -- this seems more like a quick stab -- point being, please don't do that here.

    Sorry for that vicf23, but I can't see your site for a review, did you take it down?
    // Art is what you can get away with. <-- Andy Warhol
    ...:.:::: bradyjfrey.com : htmldog : ::::.:...

  • #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by hemebond
    Why not go find out what those little tags actually mean?
    That seems to be a common thread between most of you reviews, hemebond... Perhaps you should put one of your magnificently coded sites up for review so we can learn from the master...

    I take no responsibility for the above nonsense.


    Left Justified

  • #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradyj
    vicf23, but I can't see your site for a review, did you take it down?
    Bradyj, I just looked and see vicf23's site here:

    http://vicf23.freelinuxhost.com/

  • #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindlessLemming
    That seems to be a common thread between most of you reviews, hemebond.
    Oooh. Becoming a notorious jackass am I. I'll show me...

    The reason I get snippy is because after a hard days work, I'd like to help someone that's having real difficulty, but putting in real effort.

    For instance, on art forums you'll undoubtably get someone who draws like a 5 year-old (when they're not) posting their images with the tag-line "Hey, can someone tell me what's wrong with this picture?". Despite the fact that the forum is filled with critics of greater works, hints and suggestions, links to helpful sites.

    They seem to have a nack for dodging these posts. Oh, and forum rules? Forget about it. They don't need to stinkin code tags. Coding in Javascript? Go post for help in the PHP forum.

    I enjoy helping people because not only does it make me feel good, but I also get to learn with them, or benefit from others who try to help them. So when someone comes in with a post that should read
    Hi there! Here's my site http://mysite/ I haven't validated it. I haven't even seen the HTML specifications. Frontpage is the greatest.
    what am I suppose to say? The same thing that gets said every time to all the others? Read specs. Validate. Test in a compliant browser. I'm sorry, I just don't have that kind of patience. But don't worry, it won't happen again.

    As for my sites, the only site I have running at the moment is a private intranet I set up to manage my Quality Assurance records. It uses XHTML Strict, CSS, Javascript, PHP, MySQL and XUL. Along with a lot of sites I've mirrored and am slowely converting to clean valid markup (for fun).
    Last edited by hemebond; 08-16-2004 at 03:48 AM.

  • #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hemebond
    I enjoy helping people because not only does it make me feel good, but I also get to learn with them, or benefit from others who try to help them. So when someone comes in with a post that should readwhat am I suppose to say? The same thing that gets said every time to all the others? Read specs. Validate. Test in a compliant browser. I'm sorry, I just don't have that kind of patience. But don't worry, it won't happen again.
    My mother once told me, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

    Likewise, if you don't have the patience to offer actual constructive criticism, then just ignore the post, and answer a post where you feel you can contribute something.

    Most beginners (myself included) come to forums like these with the thought that they know a good deal of html because they can construct a site using tables, a bad-*** dynamic drive rotating slideshow, one or two animated gifs for good measure, and bought the latest version of Dreamweaver. And then, thanks to helpful criticism from more experienced designers, they learn there's a lot more to the web than that.

    Besides, the question was:
    I've been doing this site for my church, and I wanted to know what you guys thought of the layout of the site.
    There's no mention of the code at all. So if you feel the code isn't up to snuff, try offering help instead of insulting it.

  • #9
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    Now to answer the question at hand

    Overall, I like the idea of the photo menu on the left, and the arrangement of the items, but I think everything looks a bit jumbled and too close together. Maybe separating things a bit it would make it easier to read. Example: the "announcements" section could be below the image of the church instead of squeezed between it and the intro paragraph.

    Also, my monitor is set at 1440x900, but my browser windows still open at a default that creates a horizontal scrollbar on the site. Maybe decreasing the size of the images (especially the "header" images) should help.

    One last thing, this one just an idea... what if the photos were a little darker on the initial state and normal contrast on the rollover state? Might be easier to read the white text as well, too...

    Hope this helps...
    Last edited by rmedek; 08-16-2004 at 05:11 AM. Reason: just fixing a typo

  • #10
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    Thanks

    Hey,

    Thanks for all your reviews. I'm looking into changing the site to relative positions instead of absolute values so that everyone can view it. I was shocked when I saw the code of the site finally, I used FP 2003 to make this site, after using Dreamweaver MX for most my work. Maybe FP does a sloppy job with the code, or maybe I still have no idea what I'm doing lol (I got FP about a week ago). Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!

    ,Vic

  • #11
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    Well the “Welcome to Trinity Luterhan Church … ” and “Announcements” images seemed to big and bold; they draw your eyes away from the content. Some of the text is cut off; I managed to figure out it said to click a link on the navigation bar to the left — I see no navigation bar. Lastly, at the very top of the page, almost cut off by the header, I get some text that says my browser doesn’t support JavaScript or something. *Shrug*

    Is that it? Are there no other pages? I didn’t see any navigation.

    Overall it looks good; clean design and the content is displayed in a nice straight forward way.

  • #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicf23
    Hey,

    Thanks for all your reviews. I'm looking into changing the site to relative positions instead of absolute values so that everyone can view it. I was shocked when I saw the code of the site finally, I used FP 2003 to make this site, after using Dreamweaver MX for most my work. Maybe FP does a sloppy job with the code, or maybe I still have no idea what I'm doing lol (I got FP about a week ago). Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!

    ,Vic
    Dreamweaver, though it tends to do some funky errors, writes standard code the majority of the time. FrontPage does not, and Microsoft even admitted in it's US monopoly hearings that it (it being Bill Gates) told it's engineers to create a system that can only be structured through Microsoft... which means microsoft code that works for Internet Explorer.
    So, you'll want to go through and fix some of that or you'll have some problems. The Doctype should not be a 'microsoft proprietary' doctype, it should be the standard W3 one... Then, there's a lot of <p> tags that I don't know what they are doing for sure -- some font tags can be dumped and CSS can be used (since CSS is for the rest anyway) And there's some Meta elements outside of the head, when they should be inside. Take a look at it straight down:
    Code:
    <html>
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    	<meta name="Microsoft Theme" content="tlc-theme-1 000, default">
    	<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" link="#669999" vlink="#999900" alink="#3366CC">
    <!--mstheme-->
    		<font face="Arial, Helvetica">
    	<script type='text/javascript'>
    
    
    
    
    
    	function Go(){return}
    
    	</script> 
    	<script type='text/javascript' src='exmplmenu_var.js'></script> 
    	<script type='text/javascript' src='menu_com.js'></script> 
    		<noscript>
    			Your browser does not support java script, please enable it or upgrade your browser to IE 4 or higher.
    		</noscript>
    <head>
    		<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
    		<meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="en-us">
    		<title>
    			Trinity Lutheran Church
    		</title>
    </head>
    <h1 align="center">
    <!--mstheme-->
    	<font color="#666633">
    		&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
    <!--mstheme-->
    	</font>
    </h1>
    <div style="position: absolute; width: 670px; height: 96px; z-index: 3; left: 164px; top: 131px" id="layer3">
    <img border="0" src="weltriban2.jpg" width="800" height="94">
    </div>
    <div style="position: absolute; width: 956px; height: 100px; z-index: 9; left: 10px; top: 21px" id="layer9">
    <img border="0" src="Banner2.jpg" width="805" height="101">
    </div>
    <h1 align="center">
    <!--mstheme-->
    <font color="#666633">
    	&nbsp;
    <!--mstheme-->
    </font>
    </h1>
    <div style="position: absolute; width: 345px; height: 217px; z-index: 4; left: 163px; top: 235px" id="layer4">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Trinity Lutheran Church is located at 200 North First Street. Trinity has a distinguished congregation, that gathers in the sanctuary for worship at 9:00AM on Sunday mornings, and at 5:30PM outside for a relaxed worship service. Trinity also has an assortment of youth and children's programs, including Sunday School, Conformation, and weekly youth outings. Prayer Requests, Bible Study, and more are also available. For more information on any and more of these topics, please click a link from the navigation bar on the left.
    </div>
    </center>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <div style="position: absolute; width: 440px; height: 334px; z-index: 5; left: 524px; top: 231px" id="layer5">
    <img border="0" src="fixedworshiptimes.jpg" width="448" height="335">
    </div>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;
    </p>
    <p align="center">
    &nbsp;&nbsp;
    </p>
    <div style="position: absolute; width: 292px; height: 66px; z-index: 6; left: 157px; top: 453px; padding-left: 4px; padding-right: 4px; padding-top: 1px; padding-bottom: 1px" id="layer6">
    <img border="0" src="annoucment2.jpg" width="347" height="93" alt="Announcements">
    <p>
    	&nbsp;
    </div>
    <div style="position: absolute; width: 823px; height: 14px; z-index: 7; left: 11px; top: 787px" id="layer7">
    <font size="1">
    	Copyright 2004  Trinity Lutheran Church. All rights reserved. This site designed to be viewed at a resolution of 1024x768 or higher.</font>
    </div>
    <div style="position: absolute; width: 356px; height: 170px; z-index: 8; left: 156px; top: 547px" id="layer8">
    7/29/04- Trinity now has a webpage!
    <p>
    	Council meeting......
    </div>
    <!--mstheme-->
    </font>
    </body>
    </html>
    Weird. FrontPage is not that clean, but it's not your fault. I would say you really need to go through and clean this up.

    As for the design, it's a bit busy -- I have no problems with the image based navigation -- But 'Welcome to Trinity...' and 'Announcements' would look cleaner without the bevel (and if they were just plain bold text mind you, I think that would be better, the warping of announcements takes away from the content a bit)-- as would the text on the church image on the right. When designing, it's best to keep it clean and focus more on how the text is layed out and displayed in a clean method, without too much beveling and what have you -- I tease some of my designers, call it 'stylitis' from the Photoshop styles that you can do and get carried away with (I used to as well when they first came out ). You'll notice in that photo that 'a' and 'patio.' is a bit close to the right hand side of the image, that also throws off the margin and makes it look like an error.

    I DO love the white space, and I think it works well here. You may want to control it even better by making this site fluid -- you could have the top header centered and make the right image stuck close to the right side so the whole thing would resize and flex with the page. I think that would be functionally nice and easier for users too. This would allow you to drop the '1024 best viewed...' blimp at the bottom -- because it is unrealistic. I would imagine your market of users is not extremely technologically sound, and many of them may have smaller monitors because they have no choice... or because they have vision problems. All in all, though, Good job
    // Art is what you can get away with. <-- Andy Warhol
    ...:.:::: bradyjfrey.com : htmldog : ::::.:...

  • #13
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    Thanks for that explaniation bradyj! I had no idea that FP didn't create standard code.

    Anyway, I've been experimenting with tables with percentages instead of fixed values, and this is the result.

    http://www.trin.stevepic.000k.net/Concert_Series.htm

    Does that solve the 1024x768 resolution proplem?

    Thanks.

  • #14
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    It solves the 1024x768 resolution problem. And if you trimmed off some of the white from both sides of "Trinity Lutheran Church" image, you could also resolve the 800x600 horizontal scrolling problem.

    One of the things that I really notice (especially at 1024x768) is that the top image doesn't line up with the left menu images at the side. For me the centering of the TLC image at the top looks just a little sloppy. Also, the menu could be a tiny bit lower on the page so that the top of the first menu image lines up with the top of the concert subheading.

    I wonder how the page would look if you split the header image into four parts (Please see attached rough image) and put it on the page with the help of CSS. I think this would work, anyway.... Make a special div for the banner. You could align the #1 steeple part of the image to the left, use #2 as a background image for the whole header div, #3 would be centered in the banner div and #4 would be aligned to the right of the page. What do you think?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Review- http://vicf23.freelinuxhost.com-tlc_demo.gif  

  • #15
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    Hey Lizard,

    Thats a great idea! Thanks! I'm gunna start looking into that.


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