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yea that helps. maybe i'll just live with a few lines. i got the cfoutput thing to work it's just that it wants me to escape every damn # sign and I use those for html entities throughout the content so it's a total pain in the arse and seems completely impractical so I guess I'll just stick with cfsilent. that will at least cut back on the half the breaks and just live with 2 breaks b4 doctype and hope they upgrade their servers to 9.1. thx for yer help man, this has been a crazy rollercoaster of whitespace madnesssssssss
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