Hello and welcome to our community! Is this your first visit?
Register
Enjoy an ad free experience by logging in. Not a member yet? Register.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25
  1. #1
    Master Coder
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Umeň, Sweden
    Posts
    5,575
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 83 Times in 74 Posts

    Does Opera matter?

    I've been following the development of Safari, Mozilla and Opera for some time now, and recently I have seen something very intreresting:
    - Opera 6 was far, far slower than all other browsers when it comes to JavaScript
    - Opera 7 was far faster than Opera 6, but still slower than any of the others.
    - Opera 7.5 is the fastest JavaScript browser around, pretty much all categories.

    During the same time, we have seen some major improvements to the browser:
    - Opera 6 did not support the DOM, but faked some DOM properties, so it would seem like it supported them.
    - Opera 7 added DOM, but were quirky and had a spotty support
    - Opera 7.5 is next to Mozilla the browser with best DOM support, far ahead of msn/osx, safari, iem and iew.

    - Opera 6 did have pretty good CSS1 support, but CSS2 was quirky.
    - Opera 7 raised the bar and dropped CSS1 behavior in the cases CSS2 did not agree. (Background attachment, floats, relative font sizing, etc.)
    - Opera 7.5 is at least level with, if not ahead of, Mozilla when it comes to CSS2.1 today, and supports some CSS3 as well.

    Opera 7.5 supports a really large part of the ie proprietary stuff, and actually has to introduce quirks to be compatible with bad design decisions on Mozilla's behalf.

    Now, Opera 7.5 is under works for the mac platform - where Opera 6 had an unproportionally high user number before Safari came out. This means that Mac users will be privileged enough to be able to run all the standards compliant browsers.




    All in all, Opera may very well dethrone Mozilla as the premier standards compliant browser, if not with 7.5, then with 8.0. It is already faster both when it comes to JavaScript and when it comes to rendering, and it has a more user oriented interface. At the same time Opera seems to be the only standards compliant browser that doesn't gain in overall user numbers. So why doesn't this really, really good browser draw more users to it, especially in web developer circles? What does the future hold? And, especially, does Opera matter?
    liorean <[lio@wg]>
    Articles: RegEx evolt wsabstract , Named Arguments
    Useful Threads: JavaScript Docs & Refs, FAQ - HTML & CSS Docs, FAQ - XML Doc & Refs
    Moz: JavaScript DOM Interfaces MSDN: JScript DHTML KDE: KJS KHTML Opera: Standards

  • #2
    Senior Coder missing-score's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,194
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    hmmm..

    To be honest I have never really taken interest in opera after version 6, basically I downloaded it for testing and there was alot of bugs which caused my code to work in IE 4+, NS6+, Moz 1.2+ and even keep its general layout in NS4!!! but not opera.

    So since then I havn't really bothered getting it back (after my reformat), I never used it except for testing things in, although after reading this I may well download it and have a look.

    Isnt there a charge to get Opera without any ads or something like that?

    Im actually quite a new user when it comes to mozilla, up until about 2 months ago I used IE and not much else, only used mozilla for testing. Then when I reformatted my computer i decided that I was going to switch to mozilla, so I have it in memory all the time now and it loads very fast. Im glad I converted, becuase it really is so much better than IE. As for converting to opera if that becomes the leader in standards support, I dont know that I will, or not immediately, as I have got used to mozilla and I hope that It will catch up to Opera in terms of standard support.

    As for speed and loading, i dont mind waiting another second or so for something to execute or render, because in mozilla I have an interface that I like.

    So overall... Id say that opera does matter, but I will probably be sticking to mozilla for a while.

  • #3
    me'
    me' is offline
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Warwickshire, England
    Posts
    1,229
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    One single words that's preventing Opera hitting it big:

    Adverts. Seriously. It's a browser you have to pay for! Not even IE stoops that low!

    And while it's CSS support may exceed Moz in some places (counters, CSS DESTROY) Mozilla is still a very fast developing browser. If 0.9 hits us by the time of the next Opera release, hopefully the Gecko will have been updated too. That means better CSS support, hopefully some of the CSS bugs quashed. And the browser bugs: those should go too.

    Mozilla will never die. It's a grassroots community, open source and with a fantastic cause. Firefox has shown how such a small programming core can produce amazing results. This browser is ready to ship. It is the best browser out there.
    David House - Perfect is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. (Antoine de St. Exupery).
    W3Schools | XHTML Validator | CSS Validator | Colours | Typography | HTML&CSS FAQ | Go get Mozilla Now | I blog!

  • #4
    jlk
    jlk is offline
    New to the CF scene
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    3
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    I started using Opera around 1997 or so, basically during its infantsy. I stopped using it shortly after until they had Java support. Now, the browser has made leaps and bounds for supporting technologies, but they still lack drastically in one area: XML

    During a recent class I took for XML, I attempted using Opera, but found a complete lack of support for even the simplest of XML and XSLT. I would LOVE to see someone other that IE fully support XML. Even Mozilla's support is severely lacking. For such an up and coming technology, you would think the major 'free' browsers would support it better.

    Just my .02

    Regards,

    jlk

  • #5
    Master Coder
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Umeň, Sweden
    Posts
    5,575
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 83 Times in 74 Posts
    Opera's XML support is just fine for me. Op7.5 supports XML, DOM2Core and CSS just fine.

    Moz supports XML even better, and adds XSLT, XLink (simple), FIXptr, XBL, and DOMLS.

    Iew on the other hand supports CSS the worse, especially for XML documents since it uses quirks mode for them, it has a less-than-perfect namespace handling, a quirky DOM (both in-browser and using the MSXML ActiveXObjects), an XSLT support that is far below that of Mozilla, doesn't have namespace recognition etc. It adds HTC to do something akin to what XBL does for moz.


    So, I can't see how you find moz and op both lacking, while you don't find iew lacking. They have fuller support than iew already...
    liorean <[lio@wg]>
    Articles: RegEx evolt wsabstract , Named Arguments
    Useful Threads: JavaScript Docs & Refs, FAQ - HTML & CSS Docs, FAQ - XML Doc & Refs
    Moz: JavaScript DOM Interfaces MSDN: JScript DHTML KDE: KJS KHTML Opera: Standards

  • #6
    Moderator
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hayward, CA
    Posts
    1,460
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts

    Re: Does Opera matter?

    Originally posted by liorean
    Opera 7.5 ... actually has to introduce quirks to be compatible with bad design decisions on Mozilla's behalf.
    Care to back that statement up? What decisions in Mozilla's design do you call "bad", and what are Opera's remedies?

    Don't get me wrong, Mozilla is a huge piece of software, and there are plenty of bugs in it to go around. Having never worked with Opera, I can't say anything about it, but I actually think the Mozilla Foundation's volunteers and paid staff have actually done a fairly good job, overall...
    "The first step to confirming there is a bug in someone else's work is confirming there are no bugs in your own."
    June 30, 2001
    author, Verbosio prototype XML Editor
    author, JavaScript Developer's Dictionary
    https://alexvincent.us/blog

  • #7
    Master Coder
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Umeň, Sweden
    Posts
    5,575
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 83 Times in 74 Posts
    Yes, they have done a great job, I agree with you on that. However, Netscape's monolithic ideas led to the construction of some core structure that limits what ease with which you can correct the behavior of Mozilla to comply with the standards. Opera have in a few cases been forced to go with the way Mozilla does things instead of the way they think it really should be done, because the Mozilla way is what standards adhering web devlopers code for, despite Mozilla not always being correct.
    liorean <[lio@wg]>
    Articles: RegEx evolt wsabstract , Named Arguments
    Useful Threads: JavaScript Docs & Refs, FAQ - HTML & CSS Docs, FAQ - XML Doc & Refs
    Moz: JavaScript DOM Interfaces MSDN: JScript DHTML KDE: KJS KHTML Opera: Standards

  • #8
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    near Oswestry
    Posts
    4,508
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Opera defers to IE-centricity in some areas as well - it supports a few of IE's prioprietary objects and methods.

    I think the development priority has been that as much as possible of the web should "just work", while the browser remains as compliant as possible. In this sense, they walk a path somewhere between mozilla's puritanicalism and IE's over-forgiveness.

    Opera is also, imo, the most user-centric of the browsers, and defers the most amount of control to the user rather than the developer. I think they've found a good balance. But I still prefer Firefox.
    Last edited by brothercake; 03-11-2004 at 08:42 AM.
    "Why bother with accessibility? ... Because deep down you know that the web is attractive to people who aren't exactly like you." - Joe Clark

  • #9
    Regular Coder trib4lmaniac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cornwall, UK
    Posts
    535
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Personally Opera just lacks that magic X factor that all things need to have, maybe it's simplicity that is the key. IE is a very simply layed out browser and that's why new users dont like to switch to other browsers such as netscape which IMHO just dont fit the bill (i hate netscape even after its death, far to many extra features). Opera whilst being nowhere near as feature heavy as netscape is still a bit intense for me (could be the blue). Not dissing Opera to badly though, I like its support for javascript etc. My fav browser though, is by far and away Firefox and I use it almost exclusively, only switching to other browsers to view my site as seen by the masses (Firefox is simple).

  • #10
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,137
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    i use opera and think its great. They have now got it at college.

    scroots
    Spammers next time you spam me consider the implications:
    (1) that you will be persuaded by me(in a legitimate mannor)
    (2)It is worthless to you, when i have finished

  • #11
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    2,469
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by brothercake
    Opera is also, imo, the most user-centric of the browsers, and defers the most amount of control to the user rather than the developer. I think they've found a good balance. But I still prefer Firefox.
    The new OmniWeb Beta 5 (maybe Mac only?) offers some fantastic new controls as well, very easy to impliment -- with a new menu popping up at the bottom of the window allowing you to appy any custom settings you need... but Opera has always been great with this.

    I like the opera browser, but was never overly excited about it. I think the interface is unpleasant, it's been unstable on my Mac (It could be user error here), the Ads are out of hand... and, for my platform, they haven't been too responsive and quick with the update.

    Mozilla, on the other hand, has always output quality, right away for the Mac; which is good, because the internet has made me even more impatient than I already was -- which means I don't want to wait, regardless of the percentage of Mac users.

    Besides, I'm testing the 7.5 -- it seems slow and feels clunky compared to Firefox, and Safari.
    // Art is what you can get away with. <-- Andy Warhol
    ...:.:::: bradyjfrey.com : htmldog : ::::.:...

  • #12
    Regular Coder
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    34░ 54' N 82░ 13' W
    Posts
    996
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    I downloaded Opera (the free version) but I didn't care too much for it. It's much more elaborate (graphics-wise) than Firefox and I prefer just plain. I didn't care too much for the advertisments either.

    I think it is a great browser, but just not 'me.'

    Just my 2 cents
    Stevie Peele
    Neverside IRC Network - irc.veonex.net | tc.tutorialnetwork.org
    #dev - any programming,etc. question
    #design - design discussion and critque
    #central - general chat
    Come join us!

  • #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    387
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
    my .02 as a young scrapper just a couple years into this game: Opera has never won my heart because of the ads, as one already mentioned.. and that is huge because the banner is huge. Which brings me to the other point that was mentioned with is paramount for me: the interface.

    I don't understand how it is more user-friendly at ALL. that comment baffles me. there's too much crap in the way, and hiding some of those panels does not come in the natural intuitive ways you would expect from other applications in some cases.

    overall, i don't like the inability to move things around with ease (something mozilla is not great about either, in all fairness.. i love how IE can move toolbars up down and all around.. that's about it for IE though), and i hate the options for sizes of the main buttons, etc.

    and even though it's skinnable, i hate the default colors and such. freakin' fugly, and you shouldn't have to rely on some high schoole nerd with too much free time to design a better interface for a company's product. mainly because the high school nerd won't deliver..

  • #14
    Master Coder
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Umeň, Sweden
    Posts
    5,575
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 83 Times in 74 Posts
    Seth: Have a look at op7.50b1. The interface has been completely reworked twice since op7.23, it's slicker, faster, more customisable, more standards compliant, and more iew compatible than ever.

    I haven't liked op before (not even 7.23), I still prefer moz/ff on Win, but on Mac op7.50 has become my favorite. (Mostly because of the mouse handling, which moz simply haven't gotten right in OS X yet - it doesn't match the os in general - and because iem, msn and saf lacks severely in developer tools.)
    Last edited by liorean; 05-03-2004 at 10:48 PM.
    liorean <[lio@wg]>
    Articles: RegEx evolt wsabstract , Named Arguments
    Useful Threads: JavaScript Docs & Refs, FAQ - HTML & CSS Docs, FAQ - XML Doc & Refs
    Moz: JavaScript DOM Interfaces MSDN: JScript DHTML KDE: KJS KHTML Opera: Standards

  • #15
    Regular Coder
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    905
    Thanks
    23
    Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by scroots
    i use opera and think its great. They have now got it at college.

    scroots

    Aye, im with scroots.. i love opera..i even paid for it to say thanks!

    nice seing you still around scroots

    Sir P


  •  
    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •