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  1. #1
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    Microsoft to offer choice of browser in Win7

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    Microsoft has decided that the last thing it needs in this economy is some combination of the following: fines, legal bills, and a delay of Windows 7. It has offered to adopt the European Union's preferred solution for bowser competition: a browser selector screen at startup.
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  • #2
    Senior Coder TheShaner's Avatar
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    Code:
    Please select the browser you would like to install:
    
    o      Internet Explorer 8 (BEST BROWSER EVER!!)
    o      Mozilla Firefox 3.5 (old)
    o      Google Chrome 2.0 (tarnished)
    o      Apple Safari 4 (boring)
    
    Click here to find a comparison of the above browsers.
    And either a) every time you select another browser, it'll automatically go back to IE8, or b) you'll select another one and it'll say "Thanks for selecting Internet Explorer 8!".

    Out of curiosity... is the EU mandating that Apple must also allow the user to select a browser other than Safari? I've never owned a Mac and I know they used to come with other browsers like Firefox or the epic-fail of IE on it, but I don't know what they do currently.

    -Shane
    Last edited by TheShaner; 07-24-2009 at 10:10 PM.

  • #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShaner View Post
    Out of curiosity... is the EU mandating that Apple must also allow the user to select a browser other than Safari?
    Why should they? Apple has not violated European anti-trust laws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    Why should they? Apple has not violated European anti-trust laws.
    But shouldn't they be held to the same standard? If the EU says Microsoft can't package their own browser and set it as the default in their OS, why should Apple get a free pass?

    Just because Microsoft has a larger market share? It should be mandated for all OS manufacturers, otherwise it is anti-competitive to Chrome, Firefox and Opera.
    OracleGuy

  • #5
    The fat guy next door VIPStephan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheShaner View Post
    […] I know they used to come with other browsers like Firefox or the epic-fail of IE on it, but I don't know what they do currently.
    As far as I know Apple shipped their OS 8 and 9 with Internet Explorer because this was the only one available at that time (Safari was only introduced with OS X). Currently Safari is the default browser and nothing else is preinstalled or available on the installation discs so actually they’re doing the same thing Microsoft did. And Safari is also updated through the system’s update function (but you can choose to never be bothered with newly available versions again).

  • #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by oracleguy View Post
    But shouldn't they be held to the same standard?
    They are held to the same standard. Why do you think they aren't?
    If the EU says Microsoft can't package their own browser and set it as the default in their OS, why should Apple get a free pass?
    Apple's browser follows web standards and does not require Apple software or proprietary code to work with it. IE did. Apple does not control the desktop market. Microsoft does.
    Just because Microsoft has a larger market share?
    No. Because they controlled the market and implemented illegal practices which blocked competitors from selling or providing their software. I thought everyone knew that. Size had nothing to do with it except when controlling the market. If you think market share is the only consideration, you have a lot of reading to do.

    btw, remember that Microsoft has been charge with this on two continents and has paid $2 billion in fines for essentially the exact same thing and is still under US federal over site which was just extended last January due to Microsoft not reporting under court order.

    I'm not getting into this sort of argument using the wrong reasons above. Both here, and elsewhere, people bring up those same silly statements which have NOTHING to do with the problem but are preached as gospel. If you think all that happened was Microsoft was just sitting around, selling their product and then one day, boom, they were in trouble, then you have no understand of the issues at hand and haven't read anything of all the published court papers freely available on the internet.

    Perhaps you guys need to look up Microsoft vs US Government, I think, to get a better understanding of what was going on in the US, at least. Essentially the same has been brought up in the EU, but the EU said US law does not apply there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    They are held to the same standard. Why do you think they aren't?Apple's browser follows web standards and does not require Apple software or proprietary code to work with it. IE did. Apple does not control the desktop market. Microsoft does.
    If Microsoft has to provide multiple browsers with its OS in addition to their own, why doesn't Apple? Just because their browser follows web standards more closely? Or because it is cross platform? So if Microsoft offered IE on OS X and Linux, they wouldn't have to offer a choice of browsers on Windows 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    No. Because they controlled the market and implemented illegal practices which blocked competitors from selling or providing their software. I thought everyone knew that. Size had nothing to do with it except when controlling the market. If you think market share is the only consideration, you have a lot of reading to do.
    I am quite aware of Microsoft's embrace, extend, extinguish philosophy. But I was saying in regards strictly to their web browser and bundling it with Windows. I realize that in that case most people just use whatever is there and that gives Microsoft leverage. But this issue with bundling software should be held up all across the board. That is what I am saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    If you think all that happened was Microsoft was just sitting around, selling their product and then one day, boom, they were in trouble
    I don't and never said anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    but the EU said US law does not apply there.
    I would hope it doesn't.
    OracleGuy

  • #8
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    This has NOTHING to do with bundling. This has EVERYTHING to do with standards compliance of IE forcing software developers to write software that only works in IE and on Windows allowing Microsoft to control the market.

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    Yeh, it is eassdier, in my experience to code a site to work in IE as the designer wants it to. The 'extra' work involved to make it work in other browsers, can appear to be a waste of money where other browsers are so small a section of the market.


    Market domination/control is not a good thing, however, if customer choice puts you in that position, it is not so bad. there is I think a direct comparison - no - contrast between M$ and goggle. (Though I think they are too big now and not as good as everyone thinks.)


    I agree however, with oracleguy in as much as
    1.
    but the EU said US law does not apply there...
    I would hope it doesn't.
    It doesn't even though our governement has completely changed into a lapdog.
    2.
    But this issue with bundling software should be held up all across the board.
    If browsers do not bring in income, surely customer choice should be the only consideration. so all computers should come pre-installed with all the compatible browsers?

    bazz
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  • #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazz View Post
    Yeh, it is eassdier, in my experience to code a site to work in IE as the designer wants it to. The 'extra' work involved to make it work in other browsers, can appear to be a waste of money where other browsers are so small a section of the market.
    Absolutely false! It is far, far easier to make standard code work in ALL standards compliant browsers. It's far more difficult to get standard markup to work in IE which is 11 years behiind all other browsers and the worst on the planet.
    I agree however, with oracleguy in as much as
    I shouldn't have mentioned that line. Out of context it apparently is being misunderstood.
    If browsers do not bring in income, surely customer choice should be the only consideration. so all computers should come pre-installed with all the compatible browsers?
    Irrelevent to the problem.

  • #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    Absolutely false! It is far, far easier to make standard code work in ALL standards compliant browsers. It's far more difficult to get standard markup to work in IE which is 11 years behiind all other browsers and the worst on the planet.
    Oops: you seem to have spouted your own stuff about IE again, which has nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned standard code. I said it is easier to make a site work in IE. It is, if you never learned how to code for standards and you aren't designing for the standard compliant browsers.

    Irrelevent to the problem.
    why is it irrelevant?
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  • #12
    The Apostate Apostropartheid's Avatar
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    Guys, are we still having the same argument? drdr will never let up on the MS hate. Please stop the ill-feeling.

  • #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazz View Post
    Oops: you seem to have spouted your own stuff about IE again
    What stuff? If you can find anything wrong with what I say, point it out.
    which has nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned standard code. I said it is easier to make a site work in IE. It is, if you never learned how to code for standards and you aren't designing for the standard compliant browsers.
    That's like saying Spanish is easy if you never learned Spanish. S
    why is it irrelevant?
    The problem does not exist with other OSes and is not whether they bring money in and it is not necessarily about customer choice.
    Last edited by drhowarddrfine; 07-26-2009 at 12:45 AM.

  • #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyanLight View Post
    Guys, are we still having the same argument? drdr will never let up on the MS hate. Please stop the ill-feeling.
    Are you saying I'm lying? Are you saying I'm wrong? I'm spreading falsehoods? If so, point them out. You can't. You won't. You're avoiding the truth. No one has come back with ANYTHING that says I'm wrong.

    There's a difference between hate for hate's sake and truth for truth's sake.

  • #15
    The Apostate Apostropartheid's Avatar
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    No, drdr. I'm not having this debate. But you hate MS and would die defending it. I don't particularly care if you're right or wrong, I'm pointing out that we keep having these long arguments which do nothing but build up vile.


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