Hello and welcome to our community! Is this your first visit?
Register
Enjoy an ad free experience by logging in. Not a member yet? Register.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25
  1. #1
    Regular Coder Kristofa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Leicester
    Posts
    143
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts

    Windows 7 to come without IE in Europe.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8096701.stm

    They've been nailed for anti-competition, so Windows 7 will not come with IE. (Although there will be a built in downloader...suggesting lots of people will still have IE...)

    Here starts the downfall of IE?!?

  • #2
    The Apostate Apostropartheid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,215
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 265 Times in 263 Posts
    Except probably not. It's unlikely that even techies will go to the lengths of actually going to another computer and downloading an alternate browser (especially if you don't have one about). At least it's completely removable from the OS, but if the EU seriously wanted this to work, other browsers would have to be bundled. I don't see that as the optimal solution either, though. Pity.

  • #3
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,340
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 61 Times in 60 Posts
    To be clear, this was Microsoft's solution and they did this on their own. The EC did not suggest this.

  • #4
    The fat guy next door VIPStephan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Halle (Saale), Germany
    Posts
    8,482
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 981 Times in 954 Posts
    Yeah, and I’ve read that maybe in future releases there will be a number of browsers available by default because how would you download a browser software without an internet browser? Something has to be there for the average luser because they probably won’t know how to use a command line tool.

    Or maybe there will be a program that asks during installation or first launch which browser they want to install and then downloads it accordingly? (that’s just an idea from my personal mind)

  • #5
    The Apostate Apostropartheid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,215
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 265 Times in 263 Posts
    That would probably be nice, but the way I see it happening now is a link on the user's desktop to download IE and Windows will do it itself--much like Live Essentials as a separate download. I doubt this will make an appearance in the US, though.

  • #6
    Master Coder
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    in my house
    Posts
    5,211
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 201 Times in 197 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    To be clear, this was Microsoft's solution and they did this on their own. The EC did not suggest this.
    Oh pulleeze. Microsoft did this onlky because they were fined for having IE inbuilt with windows. It was caused by the pressure applied by the EC. This is a quote.

    "We're committed to making Windows 7 available in Europe at the same time that it launches in the rest of the world," Dave Heiner, Microsoft deputy general counsel, said in a statement, "but we also must comply with European competition law as we launch the product.

    "We believe that this new approach, while not our first choice, is the best path forward given the ongoing legal case in Europe."
    I believe the EC cannot be allowed to dictate to individual businesses but they can influence the maket/playing field. They have made M$ adopt a different approach, which is not M$'s first choice.

    I am pleased too, that they are being monitored still, to make sure that anything else M$ does, does not negate this step forward or otherwise abuse their market position.

    Obviously an ongoing situation but, it will, likely, result in more choice for the consumer and better products. I am still slightly confused though, as to why there is so much browser warring, given that they are free.

    why not adopt one or perhaps two - say ff and safari and pool resources to create an industry-powered response to the security issues that prevail?

    ny 2c

    bazz
    "The day you stop learning is the day you become obsolete"! - my late Dad.

    Why do some people say "I don't know for sure"? If they don't know for sure then, they don't know!
    Useful MySQL resource
    Useful MySQL link

  • #7
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,340
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 61 Times in 60 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bazz View Post
    Oh pulleeze. Microsoft did this onlky because they were fined for having IE inbuilt with windows. It was caused by the pressure applied by the EC.
    You misunderstand me. Microsoft had to take some sort of action, yes, but the EC brought up several ideas for compliance, and sent a questionnaire of sorts around for other suggestions. What Microsoft did was not on the EU list and one EU commissioner was quoted as saying what Microsoft did was not something the EU had even thought of.
    They have made M$ adopt a different approach, which is not M$'s first choice.
    As said, it WAS Microsoft's first choice and the EU never suggested this one.
    why not adopt one or perhaps two - say ff and safari and pool resources to create an industry-powered response to the security issues that prevail?
    Questionnaires have been sent out looking for suggestions. I don't see why there can't be a multiple choice of something less than 10 browsers upon OS installation. Then some little program goes out and grabs/installs the browser.

    You do NOT need a browser to download or install any program. Browsers, themselves, work through sockets and tcp/ip and such themselves so any program can do the same.

  • #8
    Master Coder
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    in my house
    Posts
    5,211
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 201 Times in 197 Posts
    Your are disputing a quote from microsoft themselves. Whether it was microsofts first choice or not, has nothing to do with whether the EU sugegsted it. Out of curiosity; are you affiliated to microsoft or just strong in your belief that they are brilliant?


    bazz
    "The day you stop learning is the day you become obsolete"! - my late Dad.

    Why do some people say "I don't know for sure"? If they don't know for sure then, they don't know!
    Useful MySQL resource
    Useful MySQL link

  • #9
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,340
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 61 Times in 60 Posts
    bazz,

    I still don't get where you're coming from. Where do you get the idea I support Microsoft in any way? Start with the links in my sig. I was a major thorn in Chris Wilson's side for a while (He was the lead developer of IE till he quit recently. I hope I had something to do with that.) I consider what Microsoft did with IE a flip of the middle finger at the EU and they just may pay another hefty fine for that.

    So why you think I have any admiration for MS, I don't have a clue.

  • #10
    The fat guy next door VIPStephan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Halle (Saale), Germany
    Posts
    8,482
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 981 Times in 954 Posts
    I, too, read that it was Microsoft’s decision on how they would deliver Windows. It is indisputable that the EU made some restrictions but they didn’t say how MS should overcome the issue of browser choice. So MS, lacking much time due to a soon release, decided that for now they would just deliver Windows without IE preinstalled but not yet with an option to choose from different browsers. At least, a step in the right direction.

  • #11
    Master Coder
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    in my house
    Posts
    5,211
    Thanks
    39
    Thanked 201 Times in 197 Posts
    I suppose we are disagreeing about something very trivial/specific and which has nothing to do with the reality that M$ has dropped the inclusion of IE.

    @drhowarddrfine: The tone of what I wrote didn't come through in this text medium. I have read you are no big fan of m$ so that was meant to be tongue in cheek.

    @VIPStephan: OK, so it may have been Microsoft's decision as to how they would do it but the EU left them with almost no room for manoevre so really what other decision could they have made?

    bazz
    "The day you stop learning is the day you become obsolete"! - my late Dad.

    Why do some people say "I don't know for sure"? If they don't know for sure then, they don't know!
    Useful MySQL resource
    Useful MySQL link

  • #12
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,340
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 61 Times in 60 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by bazz View Post
    OK, so it may have been Microsoft's decision as to how they would do it but the EU left them with almost no room for manoevre so really what other decision could they have made?

    bazz
    As I said, there were a number of ideas floated about and more were coming from a survey being sent around by the EU.

  • #13
    Senior Coder TheShaner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,126
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 40 Times in 40 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by drhowarddrfine View Post
    I was a major thorn in Chris Wilson's side for a while (He was the lead developer of IE till he quit recently. I hope I had something to do with that.)
    Are you on the W3C board? Some sort of web standards committee at all? Or anything that would equate to being able to directly influence and/or put pressure on a lead browser developer besides being an annoying commenter on developers' blogs? In all seriousness, are you in any way a respected authoring or development figure in web technologies to garner the attention of the names you oh so love to throw around? If so, please by all means let us know who you really are so that we can appropriately offer a little more respect toward your anti-MS, name throwing, superfluous remarks. And I mean all that in the kindest of ways

    -Shane
    Last edited by TheShaner; 06-16-2009 at 03:05 PM.

  • #14
    UE Antagonizer Fumigator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Utah, USA, Northwestern hemisphere, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy, Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    7,691
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked 637 Times in 625 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShaner View Post
    Are you on the W3C board? Some sort of web standards committee at all? Or anything that would equate to being able to directly influence and/or put pressure on a lead browser developer besides being an annoying commenter on developers' blogs? In all seriousness, are you in any way a respected authoring or development figure in web technologies to garner the attention of the names you oh so love to throw around? If so, please by all means let us know who you really are so that we can appropriately offer a little more respect toward your anti-MS, name throwing, superfluous remarks. And I mean all that in the kindest of ways

    -Shane
    Can you really believe drdr would have been able to keep such credentials to himself for this long?

  • #15
    Senior Coder
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    1,340
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 61 Times in 60 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by TheShaner View Post
    Are you on the W3C board? Some sort of web standards committee at all?
    Nope.
    In all seriousness, are you in any way a respected authoring or development figure in web technologies to garner the attention of the names you oh so love to throw around?
    Let's say I'm known.
    If so, please by all means let us know who you really are so that we can appropriately offer a little more respect toward your anti-MS, name throwing, superfluous remarks. And I mean all that in the kindest of ways

    -Shane
    Nope. Will never do that. The closest someone came to my true identity is I accidentally let on what my real first name is somewhere.

    I am not anti-MS, really. I'm anti bad software. Anti-MS remarks only came about from past experiences. I only came to the web business something less than 5 years ago. A relative is a Windows coder for a medium-size company and sold me on using IIS, Visual Studio and all that to develop a web app. I became incredibly frustrated with what I could/couldn't do and then .NET happened changing everything I spent a year working on. Switched to FreeBSD and got the app up and running in 3 months.

    So that left a bad taste in my mouth. Then I had to start working with IE cause it's the dominant browser, right? Everyone codes to IE, right? It comes from Microsoft so Microsoft follows the standards, right?

    I went to a few forums (including this one, I believe) asking questions like "How come this doesn't work right?". A handful started showing me I was coding it right but the problem was IE. Everything I wrote worked in other browsers but not IE. It took me a while to figure out that maybe Microsoft products were the problem and not me and everything else.

    So when I started questioning IEs abilities, you would (then) get a swarm of people who would call you an idiot for using Firefox or Opera. "Do what Microsoft tells you and ignore the rest!" was the common response. I'd be kicked through the mud and laughed at constantly (still happens today). Almost 4 years ago I had the audacity to say I thought IE wouldn't have 95% market penetration and would become just one of the crowd within 5 years. Oh, the howls of laughter I endured.

    Regarding the names I banter about, I talk to these people frequently using my real name. If you tried hard enough, you could figure it out. On another forum, there's one guy who actually keeps a running list of things I've said attempting to figure out who I am.

    I'm not trying to say I'm someone you would all know. I'm just saying that I have a background. Yes, I ate lunch regularly with Jim Clark. Yes Molly and I once had a screamfest and I made her cry. And, yes, Wilson knows me by name. As long as I'm rambling, my real name is in the credits of a few Hollywood movies and you can see my face in two of them.

    Blah, blah, blah.

    I don't come here, or the other places, for credit. I come to help make my job easier by getting people to dump IE and to help people figure things out. I don't have to work. I do but now limit myself to things I feel like doing and not because I have to. I don't owe anybody anything except a small mortgage payment on one of my two homes and have a large income from several restaurants I own.

    Just over the last two weeks I've been thinking of "retiring". I'm only in my 50s, and could have done this 10 years ago, but thought I'd be bored. Now that it seems people are heading the right way with my stated goal (dump IE), it's gotten all a little boring. But I do get excited with all the new stuff getting built into browsers and, with IE slowly dying, the ability to actually use stuff that's been around for decades but couldn't because of IE. Perhaps that's why I won't quit yet.

    Or not. I'm just typing out loud.

    btw, somewhat related. When I was much younger and in the radio/TV business, I worked with a 150-year old country/western disk jockey, Skeets Yaney, who would play a song by, say Johnny Cash or Chet Atkins, and, when it finished, would say "That's my good, good buddy Johnny Cash!" and we would look at each other like "Yeah, you really know him you old fart". Or he'd get off the phone and say "I was just talking' to my good, good buddy ..." and we'd vomit a little.

    Until, one late night, I was bored to tears and the front door rang. I was the one who buzzed people in:

    Me: Who is it?
    Voice on intercom: I'm here to see Skeets.
    Me: OK. (buzz)

    I'm so bored I'm dying. Takes forever for this guy to come up to the second floor. Finally, a shadow fills the hallway and I turn to look into the eyes of Jimmy Dean! My mouth fell to the floor.

    (Later)
    Me: You really know Jimmy Dean?
    Skeets: Oh, yeah. Me and him go way back.
    Me: And Johnny Cash and all those people?!

    (Next day in the front office)
    Me: Jimmy Dean was here last night! Did you know Skeets really knows all those people?!
    Office staff: Oh, yeah. Skeets and them go way back.

    A few months later, we learned Skeets was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. Turns out, he had a national radio program on CBS at one time. My (then) girlfriend's parents even knew who he was. I was floored.

    Which goes to show you, you never now who you're going to meet....I guess.

    What time is it?


  •  
    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •