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  1. #1
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    Paid Job/Work vs Unpaid Job/Work

    Curiosity here, looking through this forum, I noticed a lot of people being very harsh and hard on people asking for help on this forum when they were asking for help about a project, or work for something they were getting paid for, or worked at a company as an employee on this project.

    My question is why so much hate and disgust in those situation? Yes, someone that accepts to work for money should know what they are doing, it's a service they're providing so they have to know what they are doing. Most of them do, but sometimes details are forgotten, things slip and they might draw a blank on a specific area, so they come here, ask a question and are shut down by people telling them "You shouldn't have a job if you don't know what you're doing!" or "We're not going to do your job for you!", even when it's a question about a small part of the whole project.

    I mean, it's not like everyone's perfect. Not everyone knows their jobs like the bottom of their own pockets. For example, a construction worker on a new site will sometimes ask for help about how to safely do a procedure they're not 100% sure about. An airline co-pilot in a new plane might question the captain about a single procedure he's not certain about. Heck, I'm pretty sure even doctors will discuss procedures together and help each other. All of these people are getting paid too.

    So yes, my question, why so much hate and disgust in those situation? Why be so hard, and harsh on these coders treating them as a disgrace to their profession?

    PS: If I missed an official rule about it (didn't see any) or something, do tell and slap my hand! But my statement still stands though.

    PPS: If this is in the wrong forum, I apologize as well, just saw it as the most appropriate place.
    Last edited by Drakius; 07-23-2010 at 01:42 PM.

  • #2
    Senior Coder Rowsdower!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakius View Post
    Curiosity here, looking through this forum, I noticed a lot of people being very harsh and hard on people asking for help on this forum when they were asking for help about a project, or work for something they were getting paid for, or worked at a company as an employee on this project.

    My question is why so much hate and disgust in those situation? Yes, someone that accepts to work for money should know what they are doing, it's a service they're providing so they have to know what they are doing. Most of them do, but sometimes details are forgotten, things slip and they might draw a blank on a specific area, so they come here, ask a question and are shut down by people telling them "You shouldn't have a job if you don't know what you're doing!" or "We're not going to do your job for you!", even when it's a question about a small part of the whole project.

    I mean, it's not like everyone's perfect. Not everyone knows their jobs like the bottom of their own pockets. For example, a construction worker on a new site will sometimes ask for help about how to safely do a procedure they're not 100% sure about. An airline co-pilot in a new plane might question the captain about a single procedure he's not certain about. Heck, I'm pretty sure even doctors will discuss procedures together and help each other. All of these people are getting paid too.

    So yes, my question, why so much hate and disgust in those situation? Why be so hard, and harsh on these coders treating them as a disgrace to their profession?

    PS: If I missed an official rule about it (didn't see any) or something, do tell and slap my hand! But my statement still stands though.

    PPS: If this is in the wrong forum, I apologize as well, just saw it as the most appropriate place.
    I guess you might say that it's an unwritten extension of rule 1.5:
    http://www.codingforums.com/rules.htm

    Much like homework, we shouldn't be doing your paid employment work either. We can and will help with aspects of any project, or with learning the basics of any process, but in my experience people who get the cold shoulder or a stern lecture are generally:

    1. Asking for more help than is reasonable or more tailored code than is necessary to learn the process. Rather than posting an educated question on a small part that they are stuck on (or, conversely, asking for overview help with the large process), they ask for - and expect us to dutifully provide - the whole script or the entire specific task to be dropped into their lap, ready-to-go.
    2. Refusing to search Google, do some independent study, read the manual, read links and suggestions we provide, and/or read our notation in the sample code we provide.


    If you have a fair number of examples to point to where one or both of the above factors was NOT in the mix then I would be legitimately interested in seeing those threads. I'm not saying it's never happened, but in my roughly two years of bumming around the forum I have rarely if ever seen someone get blasted for lack of effort where it wasn't apparently deserved.

    Yes, we have all needed help from time to time. There is nothing wrong with that. But most of us will make an effort, make some progress, asked targeted questions (even if giving an overview for the code - which is often necessary - the question should still be specific), and make a genuine effort to find a solution online before bringing the problem to the forum. Educated questions are apt to receive educated responses. People who get their hands slapped here are usually skipping more than one of those steps and using us as a wishing well for free code. That tends to upset the rest of us.
    The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. –G.K. Chesterton
    See Mediocrity in its Infancy
    It's usually a good idea to start out with this at the VERY TOP of your CSS: * {border:0;margin:0;padding:0;}
    Seek and you shall find... basically:
    validate your markup | view your page cross-browser/cross-platform | free web tutorials | free hosting

  • #3
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    Thank you for the elaborate answer.

    Well I don't have many threads to share. Just that I noticed in one of the older forum's member signatures, he spoke of not asking for help if you're getting paid for a job.
    Last edited by Drakius; 07-23-2010 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Anonymity!

  • #4
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    Hello Drakius

    I saw that thread that you mention and did think it was rather an uncalled for reaction. I guess everyone has an off day every now and then (don't mean you). Also worth remembering that written comments almost always sound more pointed than conversation, and here people have the benefit of anonymity too. Try not to take it too personally. Looks like you got some constructive help in the end on that thread.

    I agree with Rowsdower's comments about the generality of responses on this forum - most people are helpful most of the time providing it looks like people are trying to help themselves. We're all pretty much still learning all the time anyway. There are occasions when people are pretty much wanting someone else to do the entirety of their job for them. I've had a couple of people follow up posts with PMs asking another and another and another question, had to tell them to stop in the end. The other thing that gets me is people writing "urgent" on their posts. The phrase "An oversight on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part" comes to mind.

    Stick around, because it's a great place to learn.

  • #5
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    Thanks SB65,

    I was caught off guard it seems by a thread. It did end up getting constructive help though, so yes, that's something I am happy about. I will stick around too, most people seem glad to help. No worries, I'm not one to want someone to do all the work for me, I do ask questions sometimes when I'm completely stumped though.
    Last edited by Drakius; 07-23-2010 at 05:46 PM.

  • #6
    Senior Coder Rowsdower!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakius View Post
    Thank you for the elaborate answer.

    Well I don't have many threads to share. Just that I noticed in one of the older forum's member signatures, he spoke of not asking for help if you're getting paid for a job.

    I also got shot down pretty harshly and rudely here by DaiLaughing. I don't know, maybe the question was too broad. I guess I missed a few points too (I just started working for the first time, nervousness, etc...), like the validation and all that, but it wasn't like I was asking someone to do the entire project for me. It just kind of hit me, after I asked him to be more respectful through PM, he came back telling me I was incompetent and I shouldn't be in the profession. I don't know, maybe I was in the wrong.
    Well you didn't exactly get bombarded there, did you? You got one hot-headed reply (that still had some constructive information, if we're being fair about it) and the rest was just fine. Not a lot of harsh people - only one.

    And to be fair again, honestly evaluate how much time and effort you spent on researching this to figure this out with available resources before posting your question. Personally, I wouldn't have responded as harshly, but based on your code and your posts throughout that thread it doesn't look like you brushed up on HTML or CSS best practices at all before posting for a solution - which comes across as lazy. In this, you failed a portion of part 2 of my earlier list. You are, however, fairly receptive to learning. This will take you far with getting help on the forum.

    Anyway, I know it's easier said than done but try not to let one reply spoil your impression of the whole forum. And if you do get yourself into a verbal spat with another member it is really not appropriate to air your grievance publicly as you have just done. Had I realized that this thread is actually about you I would not have even asked to see the offending thread(s).

    If you feel as though something has crossed the line you should take a deep breath and move on. If it still burns, then take that up with one of the moderators. That is one of their many duties.

    The rest of us don't want to hear about it.
    The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. –G.K. Chesterton
    See Mediocrity in its Infancy
    It's usually a good idea to start out with this at the VERY TOP of your CSS: * {border:0;margin:0;padding:0;}
    Seek and you shall find... basically:
    validate your markup | view your page cross-browser/cross-platform | free web tutorials | free hosting

  • #7
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    I understand Rowsdower. I edited the link out, so it's more an anonymous thing now. Was really just curious if most of the forum was like that since it's my first time here. Apparently I judged the book by it's cover, that'd be my bad.

    Moral of the story, do lots of research before posting!

  • #8
    The fat guy next door VIPStephan's Avatar
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    Well, the frst impression is always the one that sticks. So if you get a bad first impression tendency is that you generally see it more negative (I’ve read that in a psychology book: a teacher that sees a student that is bad in the beginning and makes big progress throughout some course and another student that is fairly good in the beginning but doesn’t make much progress still tends to regard the latter one better than the former one). So it’s kinda unfortunate that you got a harsh response right in the beginning because most people are really cool here.

  • #9
    The Apostate Apostropartheid's Avatar
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    I looked up the thread you were talking about. Although it was expressed in the wrong way and angrily (I will give the poster the benefit of the doubt because it wasn't too harsh and everyone has off days, not to mention things can sound different to what we intended), his criticism was correct. It just should have been said constructively rather than destructively.

    Although our members are very tolerant of newcomers' mistakes, we do very much appreciate it if you take very simple precautions like validating your code and not using tables. I should probably sticky that somewhere, shouldn't I?

    If you have further issues on an individual basis, please contact a mod. Goodness knows we need a break from spam cleanup.
    I'm looking forward to seeing you on the forums.

  • #10
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    Well thanks again everyone. I wasn't looking to cause any drama or anything, I was just curious, I should have gave the forum a few more days then that, obviously the vast majority of people here are great.

    I do apologize if I was out of place, I know I made some mistakes, but like I said, brand new to the forums. Also like I said, I'll make sure more research is done next time, code is validated, google has been questioned, etc.

  • #11
    Supreme Master coder! _Aerospace_Eng_'s Avatar
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    Thank you for understanding. BTW I don't think you mean me but I do have something similar in my sig only because I've seen it way to often "Hi I've been told to make this website by my boss but I have no idea what I'm doing". Those are the kind of people that my sig is meant for. If you are referring to the thread I think you are referring to that guy only has 127 posts and isn't normally a regular. I think you've gotten the point we were trying to make though.
    ||||If you are getting paid to do a job, don't ask for help on it!||||

  • #12
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    Hey, off-topic, but I am working for a company that hired me based on a resume that lied on and I don't really have any experience. My senior web developer is really the resident cat and I'm really, really stuck on how to put together an HTML document. Can anyone halp?

    I just need the code to make a website. Thanks in advance.

  • #13
    The Apostate Apostropartheid's Avatar
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    You're either very funny or have made me very sad.

  • #14
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    I noticed that yea Aerospace. It's alright though, I understand where you're coming from, it's perfectly understandable. I wouldn't want to do someone's job for them and have them be paid for it instead of me.

  • #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apostropartheid View Post
    You're either very funny or have made me very sad.


    There is indeed still hope for humanity.


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