Macromedia Dreamweaver? Why is it so good?! [Archive]

barnettgs

10-22-2002, 12:01 AM

I have been using Dreamweaver for 3 weeks now in 30-days version. Today is my longest time working on Dreamweaver. I liked it for easy css feature and template/editable object feature.

However, I found it to be very, very fussy to say the least....I have put in some links on links page and all links don't work, all turned out to be www.mysite.com/www.othersite.com! It was solved by putting in http:// !

Checking again, again :rolleyes: most links don't work and I found out that I have left the one space after the links so I had to take space out on some of the links. Here I go, all works...Phew! :rolleyes: I think that was harsh, isn't it?

With my 1Ghz and 384mb ram, I never thought I would say this...Dreamweaver crashed few times and seems to be draining my system performances. This doesn't happens with any other programs in my pc.

Last of all, Dreamweaver's inbuilt ftp program doesn't connect to my webspace (no problem with frontpage) and had reading online support and tried everything (changing address etc). In the end, I thrown the towel in and downloaded a cute ftp program. My site is uploaded at last after few minutes!

Frontpage doesn't have that kind of problems and I never thought I would say that but I might go back to frontpage for the ease of use and stress/fuss-free building! Anyone wonder if frontpage has template function as dreamweaver like eg, www.mysite.com/template.dwt ?

I don't know but anyone experienced the same? :confused:

Nightfire

10-22-2002, 12:49 AM

Save all the hassles and get rid of the WYSIWYG. Get TextPad, NotePad+, EditPad, etc. Write html without having a WYSIWYG change stuff.

Spookster

10-22-2002, 12:50 AM

Nope. As a professional I think DW is by far the best development environment over Frontpage and GoLive. I've used both of those for a time. I've been using Dreamweaver for several years now. DW2, DW3, DW4 and now DW MX. I did experience ftp problems once with one of my hosts but it was because they had misconfigured their ftp daemon which Dreamweaver wasn't liking. They configured it correctly and never had a problem since.

Spookster

10-22-2002, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Nightfire
Save all the hassles and get rid of the WYSIWYG. Get TextPad, NotePad+, EditPad, etc. Write html without having a WYSIWYG change stuff.

Dreamweaver doesn't change stuff. They have options to rewrite stuff if you like,, even strip out that junk code MS word likes to put in.

Seriously though if you are developing and maintaining a site with 30+ pages a text editor just isn't going to cut it anymore. Yeah it's nice to know how to do all that manually but in the world of business it's not efficient as far as how much time it takes to code.

brothercake

10-22-2002, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Spookster
Seriously though if you are developing and maintaining a site with 30+ pages a text editor just isn't going to cut it anymore.

I disagree. I maintain a 3,000 page website entirely in a text editor. I used DW for a while but it just slowed me down; it seemed pointless to spend time learning an application's paradigm when all the application is really doing is writing source code. Much better to write the source code directly.

Of course that's only my opinion because it suits how I work. As you rightly said, in the real world you have business constraints; time-cost limitations that dictate what you do. But I've found the opposite occurs - not writing in pure source code takes much longer.

The other benefit I can see in such packages is the way they organise and template-ise a website so neatly and coherently. But hey ... you can do that yourself. Wouldn't the ideal website only have one page ... :D

Spookster

10-22-2002, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by brothercake

I maintain a 3,000 page website entirely in a text editor.

That screams for a restructuring using a database backend and server-side templates. One should never have that many pages in a site. My eye starts twitching just thinking about having to change the look and feel of the entire site which most companies like to do every few years. It could be done in dreamweaver using client side templates if you plan things out smartly.

Everybody has their own likes and dislikes about what to use but as was mentioned WYSIWYG is much faster. Case in point. Take two people, one with a text editor and one with DW and have them design a complex nested table layout and see who gets done first.

If a company utilizes proper software engineering concepts to manage a project of this nature which often uses LOC(Lines Of Code) as a software metric to generate measures of time then the person who uses the text editor would considerably lengthen the duration of the project.

brothercake

10-22-2002, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Spookster
That screams for a restructuring using a database backend and server-side templates ... It could be done in dreamweaver using client side templates if you plan things out smartly.

Absolutely. Restructuring is exactly what it needs, and that's exactly what I'm doing. But one can design and build a template-driven structure in raw source code. My experience has been that although this may be physically more long winded, it has an advantage that you're forced to abstract what you're making in a way that means you understand it at a deeper level; fewer mistakes are made and the post-project "testing and tweaking" cycle ends up significantly shorter.

Planning things out smartly is key, as you say, but the development environment you use is not de facto a primary consideration unless you have to co-ordinate a project among multiple developers. In such a situation, there are many workflow applications which do the job just as nicely without any inbuilt awareness of the data they're managing, meaning there's no requirement on developers to all use the same environment. There's a big productivity benefit there.

But I must admit, I don;t understand what you;re saying about using Lines of Code as a metric for time use. What benefit would that be?

Spookster

10-22-2002, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by brothercake

But I must admit, I don;t understand what you;re saying about using Lines of Code as a metric for time use. What benefit would that be?

:D

In managing a software engineering project whether it be a standalone software or an online software to estimate the length of time it will take to do the coding cycle of the development process many managers like to use LOC. Or basically how many lines of code a programmer can write in an hour using some predefined formula. There is not industry wide standard on that though obviously because one could write the same program in say Java which might be 100 lines of code and the same program written in Assembly could be 1000 lines of code. Other methods involve using function based estimates where the manager will determine how many functions can be produced in a given time period.

allida77

10-22-2002, 01:35 PM

I guess every one comes from different backgrounds so everyones opinion will differ. IMO while dreamweaver can save time in production it also allows people to build web pages with limited knowledge. I mostly write a good mix of server side and client side script with editplus. A very small amount of my time goes into the actual html and most of the time my pages just use a include for the default layout(header, footer, ect.). I really like WYSIWYG for clients to update their web sites but as developers I am not a big fan of it. Dreamweaver can add alot of unnecessary
attributes and increase file size. I guess I may be a little bias because I am a programmer but I see using dreamweaver as a chore more than a benefit. I am not knocking anyone who uses it but I have seen many of times when people build a site in dreamweaver and have no clue on why this layer is not aligning properly. So in my final rant if all you are doing is static web sites dreamweaver can be a real time saver , but you should refrain from using dreamweaver as a way not to learn html.

cg9com

10-22-2002, 05:43 PM

NOTEPAD FOREVER

brothercake

10-22-2002, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Spookster
many managers like to use LOC

That's so ridiculous ... That's like measuring a Policeman's performance by how many people he arrests ;)

Spookster

10-22-2002, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by brothercake

That's so ridiculous ... That's like measuring a Policeman's performance by how many people he arrests ;)

It may sound ridiculous to you but it does generate a fairly accurate estimate. If you ever study software engineering and the formal concepts used in it you will encounter that and many other things that might seem ridiculous but are commonly used.

Thatguy2001au

10-23-2002, 08:11 AM

Wow, this is one interesting post! It seems that everyone has their points and i guess there will always be advantages and disadvantages to any method that is used. I guess what it really boils down to is the users preference.

In my own opinion, i think that dreamweaver is an excellent product, especially it's latest release, MX. Most of the sites i design are done with a mixture of Dreamweaver and Notepad.

I find that dreamweaver can have many advantages especially when time is a factor. There are many things that dreamweaver can do easily and nearly perfect saving alot of time rather than code it all in notepad. And then there are things that aren't done so well, so this is where notepad steps in. I think it is better used as a corrective tool rather than a complete coding tool. But hey, that's my opinion!

So, rather than notepad forever, i say:

DREAMWEAVER FOR EVA!

ionsurge

10-23-2002, 09:11 AM

I use Dreamweaver, and have found that any problems that you may encounter, are only due to your own faults, and wrong methodology to do something.

Dreamweaver is great, as was Allair HomeSite.

The worst one woud be Corel GoLive!. I didn't like it at all when I used the trail version.

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-23-2002, 12:15 PM

Nowdays I only use a text editor for editing minor things, although I guess I do seem to switch to code view a lot in dwmx because I can't live without the coding colors anymore.

It has many many advantages over a text editor as you can switch views really quickly and instead of adjusting a bunch of widths and heights of cells you can do it visually with the properties which is so much faster.

In my oppinion text editors just don't cut it. Spookster is absoloutely right, for large sites and database driven sites a text editor just isn't good enough anymore.

It also can create all the code in Xhtml.

allida77

10-23-2002, 01:27 PM

The worst one woud be Corel GoLive!.

No way the worst ever would be DrumBeat.

barnettgs

10-23-2002, 01:35 PM

I didn't expect this thread to be turned out interesting!

Well, I had a try with notepad while back and I was struck there thinking 'hmm, what code do I supposed to put in?' I had few plays with it and thats it. I gave up! :(

You see, I don't work as webdesigner or web builder so WYSIWYG is for me and about Dreamweaver, of course, I have accepted that it's my fault for any errors I have created. But I also found Dreamweaver a bit too much to do just for minor change in tables or links etc.

However, I have downloaded Namo Webeditor trial (45-days version now owned by Jasc software?), it is a bit like frontpage but is much tidier in coding and have more features than Frontpage's so-called features! I am very impressed with it and a great css feature! In fact, it seems to do what you want to see in the page, I have just created impressive page within minutes of opening new document with a couple of blackground gifs in hand and table! I think I have found a new love! :D

I am gonna dump Frontpage and Dreamweaver...I know Dreamweaver's great but I'm not making most of the features in dreamweaver as I do design a couple of personal website including one club.

Thanks for any feedbacks

RadarBob

10-23-2002, 01:45 PM

As a professional programmer new to web development I have to say development time is slower than molasses - I'd like to use other explitives, but decorum prevents me from doing so... Because there simply is no such thing as an integrated development environment with good debugging tools one must rely on a patchwork of tools varying widely in quality. And if Batman has his own web site, DW is in his bat-utility belt :cool: .

I cannot imagine that one would not use any tool that gives even a hint of efficiency. Personally I cannot do without color coding. I use HTML-kit :( (but this is NOT an endorsement believe me!) and a co-worker uses notepad. No contest - no matter how crappy HTML-kit's search/replace is and it's buggy code-colorizing and it's non-standard interface (HomeSite ain't any better here):rolleyes: - gawd, where's my Macintosh!:thumbsup:

I'd think dreamweaver (and it's companion graphics manipulation pgm - is it integrated now? On the Macintosh it's called fireworks), no matter if you think hand coding makes johnson bigger:rolleyes: , seems to me DW has it's place and can significantly help productivity when used appropriately.

My pet peeve is weak (again, decorum!) user interfaces so I'm using Javascript and DOM *extensively*, along with the ususal suspects including ASP:mad: :mad: . Debugging is hell. I cannot get consistant, useful feedback from the coding environment. This is worse than coding on a 1960's era IBM mainframe. At least that had documentation and complete reference material - vis-a-vis "doorstops as computer books" from Wrox publishing:mad:

firepages

10-23-2002, 02:17 PM

hmmmmm well I give DW & its ilk (I thinks thats like a wombat but with antlers?) a big thumbsdown .... to be honest I cant quite work them out, and though I have never tried anything later than DW3 I recall that mostly what you saw was rarely exactly what you got and that annoys the hell out of me.

gotta say the same for notepad though, I use it for the odd typo or for view-source but I think writing a whole web-site in notepad shows a slightly masochistic nature :) ... you should try vi or emacs if that rocks your boat :P

And I dont think the size or scope of the site has anything to do with it, if you like WYSISYG then thats fine as is a decent text-editor I think both have advantages and disadvantages and its a personal choice, I prefer a good text-editor with all the standard search and replace,colour-coding, etc etc

Now Spooks , I know you know what an ilk is..... but I have found from experience, when out working on contract etc ,that whenever I go somewhere and they are using dreamweaver... then chances are that only 1 in 10 of the users there will actually know even the basics of HTML , and there is normally 1 indispensible dude or dudette who ties everything else together.

....of course if I found a shop that used front-page... I would just turn around quickly and hoped nobody saw me coming in :)

brothercake

10-24-2002, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by firepages
I prefer a good text-editor with all the standard search and replace,colour-coding, etc etc

Me too. I live in Textpad (http://www.textpad.com) - the [fully programmable] syntax highlighting, and macro capabilities are indespensible. But what really makes it a pro tool is its support for regex search and replace. Changed my life that did.

dysfunctionGazz

10-26-2002, 11:36 AM

Anyone ever used AceExpert (or AceHTML) by Visicom Media? That was my first HTML editor and had various cool things that really sped up my learning curve!

firepages

10-26-2002, 12:05 PM

not used AceExpert, but I remember that I started my online shenanigans with HotDog Pro :D from sausage software... there was another editor I recall using at the same time which lost out to hotdog but I cant remember its name !

dysfunctionGazz

10-26-2002, 12:22 PM

You get the Silly-software-name-user award then! ;)

ASAAKI

10-26-2002, 12:28 PM

yea i heard of AceHTML from some site and rushed to check it out and found out it wasn't free and forgot about it:D

actually, if it weren't for DW i wouldn't be nowhere today (not that I'm anywhere today :D). it's great for learning or for people who can't bother much about HTML. and i certainly believe it's a great product. but now that i've got something to do with HTML in my own head i use notepad only. i did start out on DW4, and i've also got a DWMX CD, but i've never installed it although it's been sittin on my desk for months. i simply prefer plain coding (look out firepages - here's a masochist ;)). i think there's just so much more control over what u do when u do it yourself. DW is just too much of a hassle...or maybe i'm too lazy to personally go through what it makes it so indispensible for some people.

whammy

10-27-2002, 04:59 PM

I have tried DreamWeaver, and it's not for me. :)

I use HTML-KIT, NotePad, or TextPad, depending on what it is I'm doing.

However, something might be said for WYSIWYG editors, at least in one respect - they make it easier to mess around with the graphics side initially... I can code ASP, JavaScript, and HTML all day in a text editor (and I do, at work - as a matter of fact none of the developers I work with use a WYSIWYG editor!), but it's not very inspiring graphically (to me, personally).

However when it comes to the coding part, I am sticking with text editors (HTML-KIT is really nice in the fact that you can make your OWN plugins easily with javascript to SERIOUSLY save time by writing commonly used code for you).

Shock Six

10-28-2002, 06:14 AM

Actually if i remember correctly Dreamweaver writes clean code...and i think it has an option in it to clean up Frontpage or Word coding...

zoobie

10-28-2002, 06:50 AM

Yeah...it does...but it's a total clunker. DW is great for newbies and even lazy intermediates.

But since I've learned some html/js/php, I've dumped it and now am using a new text editor called Crimson just released...pretty good.

My second vote would be that HTML-Kit because it includes HTML Tidy I believe. :p

Shock Six

10-28-2002, 07:09 AM

I have not tried either of those....If you get a chance post some links to them and ill check them out....Ive been using SYN and of course Notepad....

Although i did start with ACE HTML years ago...when it was still freeware...but its not a WYSIWYG editor....

If i was somehow forced to use a WYSIWYG editor....hmmm
I would have to pick DW just for the clean coding....personally

RadarBob

10-28-2002, 01:36 PM

My second vote would be that HTML-Kit because it includes HTML Tidy I believe.

I've been using HTML-Kit for about 2 months now. What do you want first, the good news or the bad news?

good
Color-codes HTML, ASP, Javascript simultaneously. Other share/free ware editors some rave about just don't.

Good headers and footers on printouts. Also bolds keywords on printout. very nice.

bad
The find/replace absolutely subicks.

During editing often the color coding goes away. It will come back, but it's annoying.

Split screen is vertical not horizontal. Very, very stupid.

More than a couple of times I've inadvertently shut down HTML-Kit instead of closing a file window. Some non-standard/quirky interface elements - but it's a Windows product, what do you expect?

Has "tag matching" but doesn't understand a lot of newer HTML tags nor brackets of various stripe (curly, square, and the ever popular parenthesis).

Very Bad
Last week HTML-Kit crashed in the middle of editing. Thinking my file was OK, I re-opened it and it was blank! The file could be seen in Windows explorer, for example, could be opened w/out any problem by all the editors I tried - BUT IT WAS BLANK! Weeks of work down the drain!!

Moral
You get what you pay for. BTW, HTML-Kit is freeware. Honestly, until that little hari-kari incident Iwas - relative to textpad, textEdit, WordPad, MS Word - reasonably satisfied.

Finally
The best programmer-centric GUI editor I've seen in the last 15 years, was and still is BBEdit for Macintosh. Isn't so Web-centric though. Solid features for coding any language and absolutely excels in C/C++. Hands down, no contest. Wish there was a Windoze version.

redhead

10-28-2002, 02:20 PM

editplus (http://www.editplus.com) > *

Shock Six

10-28-2002, 06:04 PM

Edit plus looks good to....

Shock Six

10-28-2002, 06:05 PM

Take a look at SYN...
its open source and created with Delphi7...

http://syn.sourceforge.net/

:thumbsup:

allida77

10-28-2002, 06:49 PM

Yeah editplus all the way.

zoobie

10-28-2002, 08:26 PM

Crimson Text Editor (http://www.crimsoneditor.com/) is brand new and getting rave reviews. :D

whammy

10-29-2002, 12:01 AM

I'm downloading it to check it out. I already own HTML-KIT, EditPad Pro, and TextPad - as one guy said, the search and replace in HTML-KIT bites the big one (for that I use EditPad or TextPad), but maybe they will improve it in future versions.

I personally like the ease of writing plugins for HTML-KIT though, it has saved me countless hours of writing code by making my own plugin for stuff I always use. And I've never had any "accidents" with it creating a blank file in hundreds and hundreds of hours of use (?).

PlatinumProject

10-29-2002, 12:01 AM

omg this thread keeps going i think we've had enough :thumbsup:

oracleguy

10-29-2002, 03:28 AM

One thing that can be handy with DW is that it has the "check-out" feature so if there are multiple developers on the project, so someone doesn't try to work on a file while someone else is.

ionsurge

11-11-2002, 03:14 PM

I now use Allaire Homesite, (now owned by Macromedia). It is not a wysiwig editor, it is a text editor, but it is suprisingly good, and unbelievably small - but costs a lot more than DWMX pound for pound/ dollar for dollar.!

Ionsurge.

applesauce

11-11-2002, 05:42 PM

http://www.editpadpro.com/
:)

isleshocky77

11-12-2002, 09:53 PM

I love to use DW to edit the looks and basic format to my sites, but when it comes to scripts I would prefer a text editor. The great thing is that I most use DW in code view the difference is all I have to do is hit 'Ctrl'+'Shift'+'u' and bam my site w/ corrections is up. I'm waiting for a basic text editor such as notepad which will have site options like DW. If anyone knows of one please tell me.