Help on Money issues for webdesigners [Archive]

ACJavascript

10-16-2002, 07:37 PM

Hello,,
If this is not the correct area please move me :D:D.

Hello fellow codingforum members.. I NEED SOME HELP! heheh :D

Okay,, I'm getting up there in webdesign.. I have two jobs on hold at the moment.. What i would like to know is..
How much money do you think is a good amount to ask for?
I know that there are alot of things that go into the payment.
But for senerios sake take this job and what would you ask for.
__________
1. A larger site. 25-100 pages
2. Some Perl, cgi, asp needed.
3. Provide logos for site.
4. Mabye some flash.
5. Good navigation scripts.
6. Login and signup scripts.

____________

and second..
What do you prefer.. Hourly charges or lump sums.. WHich are better??

I'm not new to designing. But i am new to the money thing hehe :D

Any opinion is greatly appreciated.:D

Thanks in advance :D:D:D

webmarkart

10-16-2002, 07:47 PM

Generally speaking I charge anywhere from $1000 to $5000 for a customer site. The $5000 variety involve more database work, creation of graphics, ect.... The $1000 sites are usually straight informational sites with little if any dynamic content. I target small to medium size businesses, but the company I used to work for used to get over $15,000 for a major corporate site. Obviously the prices are general and subject to a number of different variables.

From a similar post I remember a lot of users of this forum prefer hourly charges, but I recommend flat fees. I usually meet with the client, make sure I know what they want and come up with a set fee. By charging hourly you run the risk of making some customers unhappy if they don't understand how long it takes to do certain tasks. This way the customer know exactly what to expect ahead of time.

One piece of advise... Get some money up front. This will prevent clients from backing out after you have begun working on their site. I usually ask for a little less than half up front and the rest upon completion.

Nightfire

10-16-2002, 08:11 PM

I charge for the site. Don't bother with pay-per-hour. I ask for a deposit before I do anything, this will cover domain registration, hosting, etc. Prices depend on what they want, can be from £100 - £1000+. All depends on the size of site wanted, amount of programming, graphics, etc

I split the payment into 3 sections, after the last section has been paid off, I give them the site. This makes sure I get paid.

whackaxe

10-16-2002, 08:40 PM

nice pricing guys! i charged about 150€ for a good quality corperate site. (but then again im only 16 and dont have to pay any bills/food. luck me! ;)). persoanly i would prefer to have afixed price because as soon as you start explaining anything about time and technology people dont understand and think your trying to rip them off.

ACJavascript

10-16-2002, 11:23 PM

Thanks guys,, Yea thats pretty much what i thought..
I was thinking around 100-500 but 1000 WOW.. hehehe :D

I'm 16 too wackaxe.. WAS UP!!!!!!!! hehehe :D

i've done about 5 site for people for free.. I just don't want to do a site and not do it well and then the customer ends up thiking the charge price isn't good for the job.. and i agree with what you guys where saying about the hourly fees.. ALot of people don't understand the time it takes to make a site just right..

Thanks alot:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I would still like to here anyones opinions.. THe more there are the more info there is hehe :D

Thanks :D

^KoalaBear^

10-17-2002, 12:36 AM

ROFLMAO!

I'm still laffin' at all your :D `s!!! At 16 and already ya workin out what colour Porsche ya gonna be drivin! LOL Good for you, Mate!! Wish I was just starting out again....... * :rolleyes: *

As a former Consultant, I too would suggest you attempt to negotiate a fixed price for as much of your work as you can. You may need to further agree specialised work on a per task basis, but keep these to a minimum if possible.... always making sure your client fully understands likely range in costs. Putting contracts or agreements in writing is essential.... if only in a confirmation letter.

Finally. re a deposit.... your clients expect you to be professional so don't be embarrassed to not only ask for... but cooly and calmly insist upon, either an up-front deposit or a negotiated series of progress payments, again always pre-agreed with the client.... WITH written confirmation.

Good Luck my young friend.. Let's hope the 'financial' mistakes you'll surely make will be few and small... but part of your development of overall business skills and acumen.

British racing green looks great on a Porsche!! :D :D :D (ROFL)

Cheers!
KB...
:thumbsup:

ACJavascript

10-17-2002, 12:40 AM

HEY Koalabear...
Havn't seen ya in a while. :D:D

Thanks for the info mate,, it really will come in handy..

Is there a site or something that explains good agreements.. For Signing purposes?

^KoalaBear^

10-17-2002, 12:49 AM

Good to see you about the boards too, Mate!
I'm not aware of any sites that spell out the essentials of good agreements etc, but I am happy to look over any you might come up with... at a negotiated fee of course ;) ... ROFL. Only joking Cobber!
Give me a few days and let me see if I can find something for you to start you thinking. I'll PM or Email you.
Cheers!
KB...
:thumbsup:

ACJavascript

10-17-2002, 12:53 AM

Hey THanks ALOT KB.. :D:D:D

I really appreciate it.. If you want to email me its ACJavascript@aol.com,, My IM is ACJavascript

Hope to here from ya :D

webmarkart

10-17-2002, 02:36 AM

Its one thing to charge someone $100-500 for a site when you are younger, but I charge for my expertise that the customer does not have. I go to a mechanic and pay up to $70/hr to fix my car because I don't know how.

$1000 for a company that plans of getting exposure if not sales from a website is nothing. Companies can deduct the money that they pay for a website when they file their taxes as a business expense.

Granted the situation is different if your 16, but I went to college to gain the knowledge that I can provide to others. I rarely accept less than $1000 for a site that I have created from scratch. If I simply redesign something, thats different.

Don't sell your knowledge short.

joh6nn

10-17-2002, 06:43 AM

i've only ever done just a few sites, but i charge by the hour. i don't want to get half way into a project, and discover an interesting new tidbit of information, that completely changes things, and have to start completely over, but still only get payed for the original job. if i charge by the hour, and my customer says "hey, i saw this the other day, i forget on which site, but it was really cool! can you do it for me? i don't know what it was, and i can't describe it, but i'm sure you can do it. only, i want it in red. ok?", i'm cool with that. i'll even get it in red.

Mhtml

10-17-2002, 09:24 AM

Well I'm 15 and I charge $500+ for personal websites which generally seem to be mainly graphic and html work.

And for companies it depends on the size, if it is big and has a large profile they usually want the good stuff and loads of it so I charge $4000+ for large companies and for small to medium which is what I target $1000+...

Those prices are inclusive of hosting and domain name expenditure.

Like Webmarkart said if large companies are going to get some sort of economic gain out of it you can charge a large amount because they will make it back and by doing that makes a good investment.

I have only done 3 personal sites and 1 small business website , but I haven't launched my business yet because I'm waiting to get the money to register it at Christmas because I'm going all out, my strategy is take no prisoners. I already have 5+ medium businesses which are waiting untill I register my business. They are owned by friends. From that I will have the leverage to take out my competition and then expand into software development. And then a small piece of the economic world will be mine HAHA!

^KoalaBear^

10-17-2002, 09:55 AM

LOL Hiya Matey! What colour Porsche you gonna get??? ROFL

Geeze if I was only a teen again * sighhh * LOL

How was the weekend at Bathurst?

Cheers!
KB...
:thumbsup:

ionsurge

10-17-2002, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Mhtml
Well I'm 15 and I charge $500+ for personal websites which generally seem to be mainly graphic and html work.

Oh my god!

bcarl314

10-17-2002, 11:36 AM

Well, here how I usually figure out contracts.

I try to get as specific as possible with the design. Graphics required, database developement, what types od scripts (server & client) are needed and the like.

Once I get the specs, I try to figure out hours to put it together. The nice thing is, that usually people want the same types of things , as far as programming. They usually want the following:

Contact Us form
Member area
Simple shopping cart

Usually, I can take existing code I've developed, modify it for the particualr need and get it up and running really quickly. So, let's say a client wants a simple sign in based shopping cart. Well, I've got the code for that (along with admininstration area) which took me about 70 hours to develop. So I charge him 30 (40%) hours for the code. Same with Contact us pages, took 5 hours to code so I charge 2 hours. That way I'm not having any one customer bare the full charge, and it's really easy to set up the site. The deisgn (html) I usually charge about 10 - 20 hours based on the needs of the client (graphics / flash / other).

Now once I figure the hours, I give them a price quote. (I've actually got a spreadsheet with all the programs I've got and the associated hours). I total the hours and convert it based on my hourly charge (currently $35 / hour), then provide the quote. I know this seems pretty involved, but actually it makes the whole quoting process real easy. All I do is work on new code for websites, right down the time it took to develop and then add it to my list w / 40% development time as the cost. Seems to work for me.

Hope this helps. Good luck with the Porsche :D

allida77

10-17-2002, 02:01 PM

I think this varies with personal experience. The first site I ever did we just gave a flat fee of about $2500-$3000. We kept track of our hours and realized that we lost about $4000 by not charging hourly. People just starting out are usually reluctant to charge for services and end up doing alot of things for free. If a client is not willing to pay then IMO they are going to get what they pay for. I interned at a consulting firm and they would give bids around $15-$20000 and then get undercut by people charging only $1000-$5000. The difference is the consulting firm is looking to make a profit and a living. I have heard from some that you should charge 200% whatever your current hourly wage is .This will cover health care, taxes(:mad: ), 401k, ect. If this is your first gig than it will be hard to estimate how long it would take so I would charge hourly.

Well I am just ranting so I do not know if any of this helps. Just do not give quality work for free because other clients(referrals) will expect the same.

whackaxe

10-17-2002, 04:08 PM

carera definatly but i would prefer an aston martin;). MHTML, you msut have the charisma of an 18 year old sweedish super model to pull a site for 500$! i got 150€ for a corperate site and thats about as much as i ever got. i just got an offer for a working holiday in cypress actually, through familly relations which could be quite good (more proof that computers are good for your health ;)). something i found quite funny is people who want a website, and dont know much about website esthetics, is that they make the big mistake of not paying me 100€ and ask a friend with MS front page to whack them up something free and it ends up looking like your gran's homesite displaying her very interesting collection of thimbles (it exists, god knows why). the best would be to make a portfolio of sites you have doen of just example layouts and content. keep the money rolling in guys!

*prints off topic to show futer clients price of webdesign*

piniyini

10-17-2002, 05:37 PM

I cannot believe how much you guys have learned at such young ages (15 + 16 !), its very surprising ! Plus you guys manage to make dosh.

I'm 16, and dont know much, just a bit of html, asp, php, and javascript.

You guys make me feel dumb.

Thats all I wanted to say.

ACJavascript

10-17-2002, 07:01 PM

WOW,, this is great information guys THanks!!!
KEEP IT COMING!!!!!!

I would like a nice blue corvet!!
hehehe :D

Heres My Site,, How much would you say I would get estimate..
If i did this for someone..

http://www.acjavascripts.com

and all of it was made by me.. hehe..
Even the newsletter and search..

firepages

10-18-2002, 10:53 AM

Dunno about the right price (depends on so many factors) but the harder lessons I have learnt are the 2 noted below...

1) ALWAYS , get a deposit... if for no other reason than once a company has laid out some hard cash then helping you becomes more important to them, i.e. my biggest issue has always been getting information(content) from customers who promise 'itll be there next week' etc and never is, once they have laid out a few $$ they are more eager to finish the job.
If a company does not want to give you a deposit (at least the first time you work for them) then they are not worth dealing with, its standard practice in many fields, I have learnt this the hard way ;)

2) ALWAYS set out in writing exactly what you are going to do for your money and more importantly what THEY need to provide for you to be able to complete the job, & get them to sign or acknowledge receipt of such, again this is standard practice, they should not have an issue with it and if they do be wary.
Note this need not be a formally prepared 'legal' contract, (though thats optimal but not always possible/realistic), if you have written your and their expectations out and both have a copy its harder for either side to wriggle out of or 'forget' anything.

I charge by the Job/Contract, if new bits and bobs are added I may or may not charge extra for them depending on what the additions entail, if a client changes thier mind half way through (and that happens ALL the time) then they have to expect to pay for that too, make sure this is noted in the above 'contract'

I know others locally who charge by the hour and seem happy enough with that (If a job is just scripting no design then I do the same)

How much all depends on who you are dealing with , their expectations and if you are any good at what you do !, an established business is as likely to drop a quote as being 'too cheap' as they are for it being 'too expensive' , I dont really think that the price has ever been a factor in any 'website' I have been involved with, scripting is different and I have to compete.

ionsurge

10-18-2002, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by ACJavascript
WOW,, this is great information guys THanks!!!
KEEP IT COMING!!!!!!

I would like a nice blue corvet!!
hehehe :D

Heres My Site,, How much would you say I would get estimate..
If i did this for someone..

http://www.acjavascripts.com

and all of it was made by me.. hehe..
Even the newsletter and search..

Urmm, sorry but not a lot. I would pay a lot if someone designed something like www.2advanced.com, but that is just me. I dont use that kind of design, and I do prefer things to be clutter free, and neat. That is why I designed www.angelfire.com/realm2/thedarkangel and www.angelfire.com/empire/horizon because they are clean cut.

I dont know what other people would say, or suggest, but charging more than a fifty for that is not worth it.

I make sure my clients like what they see, and I make more or less all my graphics.

Much easier, and better.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-18-2002, 11:21 AM

RED easily the best, red cars go fast. Not sure if I'd want a porshe, I like my Falcon GTs but it'd have to be a 911 if it was a porsche.

How cool is this, I was walking out of exams today and one of my fellow students walked up to me and asked for my number as his mum owns a fairly reputable business in the city and wants me to make a website. I asked him if she said anything about a budget cap and he said $3500 ! came as a shock as I don't tell anyone about my web development skills I'm already considered a brain-i-ac just for having a test average of 97.4% and my IQ of 133.
(Don't mean to brag)

I think I may re-think my pricing plansafter this as I think that I should charge by the hour. I always try to work as fast as I can but will never sacrafice quality.

Question though, this may help ac as well.

I have never had to arrange hosting or domains so far because the few people I did sites for were happy with redirections with ads and the business I have done a site for already had that from a previous site.

How should I go about setting it up? I mean should I write specific instructions or put it in my name and transfer it or what?
My main problem is the password and credit card privacy issue.

ACJavascript

10-18-2002, 03:50 PM

Hey ionsurge :D:D:D
Thats want I want to here.. keep it comin..
And it didn't burst my bubble.. Yea 2advanced is cool but it also have flash.. So thats why its looks cooler.. I just got a flash program and will update.. Keep the critizim comming hehehe :D
It only makes my site better!:o

______

Mhtml,, nah man blue is the best color hands done hehe :D

ionsurge

10-18-2002, 04:29 PM

Blue is great, but it depends what shade it is. I dont like navy or royal blue.

ionsurge

10-18-2002, 04:30 PM

By the way, for your hosting. Do it with someone who is reputable, like www.easyspace.com. They are great, and you have a whole load of options, and some great bandwidth and webspace offers.

Ionsurge.

ACJavascript

10-18-2002, 04:45 PM

yea,, not as dark as navy blue,, but not as light as skyblue.. rightin the middle hehe.. How much is there hosting ?

ionsurge

10-18-2002, 05:08 PM

Like anything, it varies depending on what you want. Less you want, the cheaper it is, the more you want the more it costs.

<edit> stick in any random domain name, e.g werho3, and you will see the options </edit>.

Ionsurge

whackaxe

10-18-2002, 08:17 PM

i would back ionsurge on this one, your site looks to 'homepagey' to my taste. there are not enough graphics and the colors arent to good together. also i think your using TNR as a font wich is a VERY bad choice (god knows why eits default on word???) but i think that 2avanced, is err......2 advanced, i mean that its good and all but it doesnt fit on a 800*600 screen and that it just gets to impressive

ACJavascript

10-18-2002, 09:11 PM

Okay i can see exacly what your saying both of ya.. MMm..
So more graphics different color.. cool..
So what like more hightec.. thats what im thinking.. haha..
I will work on it.. Keep it comin:D:D:D:!

Thanks to everyone who has been helpin out in this thread!!!

P.S.. Hey ion.. just wondering.. whats wrong with my host:D?
why do you think I should get a different one?

they over allot at my host hehe :D:D!

ionsurge

10-19-2002, 09:02 AM

I didn't sasy anything about your host, someone said what should they do to go about getting a host, I think MHtml or someone said it - I was just replying to that.

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-19-2002, 10:38 AM

Yeah that was me.

I think you could make it a lot better by rearranging the layout!
Get rid of that side bar, change the colors and that beveled banner has to go!

I think if you are going to use a dark blue like that you should use white as the text on the form elements.

Also you definetly need a good clean logo.

If you want I could whip up a logo and a site design which is clean and easy to navigate as a guide so that you could make the best site.

Great site though I'm browsing the DHTML scripts now, I'm learning it so I'm harvesting a few from your site to rip apart and examine.

ionsurge

10-19-2002, 12:49 PM

I guess that is the best way to start learning eh?

Ionsurge

Mhtml

10-20-2002, 01:34 AM

For some it is and others it aint.
I seem to learn better by discovery rather then being told what will happen. It may take me longer but in the end I have a broader knowledge.

ACJavascript

10-20-2002, 03:56 PM

Sure you can whip some stuff up Mhtml:D:D,,

That logo was the extent of my art work then.. I got a new art program now, but even that doent compare with Adobe or paintshoppro.. hehe..

So the logo isn't right.. and the design is not that good either.. Is it hard to navigate..? PLus I don't want to many images then all you get a sitting down for 5 minutes waiting for the pages to load hehe.. LIke A1javascripts.. I dont even go there any more its to long of a wait..

I'm glad you like it though.....

ionsurge

10-20-2002, 05:26 PM

I guess what it was that made me shiver when I saw the site was the amount of scrolling that I had to do, it took an unnaturally long time to get to the bottom.

But I guess that if your site was like www.deskmod.com, then it would be okay.

It is great to see people progress in the world of web design, and I bet that we will see your creations excel, and well it should be great for us, and for you.

Good luck AC.

:thumbsup:

Ionsurge. - always here to help

ACJavascript

10-20-2002, 05:56 PM

Yea I can see what your saying.. But that site was a little confusing.. to me atleast. hehe :D..

Thanks for your kinds words:D:D:D!!

oracleguy

10-20-2002, 06:29 PM

:rolleyes: I'd get a nice Metalic Black Mercedes SL55 AMG instead of a porsche or Aston Martin... I mean a 493hp V8 in a convertable? And you can get it with Distronic and Keyless Go too. :)

Back to the subject at hand, I usually charge by the hour for conversions or small jobs but a complete site that requires server-side coding and database work I'd definetly go with a lump sum. I ask for 40% up front and then the rest upon completion.

As for the hourly wage, that can vary depends on what you want to charge. For example I get a lot of jobs to fix computers and stuff and I charge $50/hour and most people are amazed I do it so cheaply.

BroChris

10-20-2002, 11:10 PM

I charge flat rate or hourly depending on what I'm doing. As far as collecting goes, I collect half up front, and half upon completion. It works out pretty well that way, and my clients usually just decide to go ahead and pay the whole thing up front, which is fine with me also :D

But then again, I haven't completed anything for either of my clients yet, so what do I know? They might demand their money back, then what do I do???

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 07:56 AM

Skip the country.

ionsurge

10-21-2002, 11:09 AM

That is a wise suggestion.

How can you do that?

Hrmm...

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 11:24 AM

lol.

Hey AC I had a crack at making some logos for you based on the one you already have.

If you like them just save it and slice it up using whatever program you want...

I will change the colors if you want.

http://24.226.62.28/projectodyssey/logo.gif

That's if you like of course, I could easily make up something completly different.

ionsurge

10-21-2002, 11:32 AM

MHtml, by your standards, that is pretty strange. I can knock that out with Microsoft (we all hate em) Word's WordArt.

Your logo on your site was much better.
:D

Hrmm...

I will knock something out a little later, when I get home, which you may or may not like - I dont know what it is gonna look like, but what the hey, we will have to see when I make it...

:thumbsup:

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 11:45 AM

Yeah I know, just a really simple shadow.
I tried to keep it simple and sizr down. Do you think I should go all out? I'll make something real special!

Also I'll upload one of my best vector images in a sec for you ionsurge
http://24.226.62.28/projectodyssey/screwtheworld.png

ionsurge

10-21-2002, 11:48 AM

Dont worry, simple is the best. Look at my site - well what is there that is.

The logo is simple. Given, you can't knock it up in Word, but it is effective.

Going all out seems to be a hell of a problem when you think that the site itself may not go all out - and it would make it look poor.

It is up to you MHtml, but I would have done something pretty simple, but a little more graphical - e.g. wire meshes, stuff like that in the background of the text, which would not have a shadow.

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 11:55 AM

Well actually it's not my best but my favourite, I think it makes a good statement about humanity. It's made of all different shapes, no pencil and paint bucket.

http://24.226.62.28/projectodyssey/screwtheworld.png

ionsurge

10-21-2002, 12:02 PM

hehe that is pretty kewl.

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 12:08 PM

Thanks, I'm not sure how or why I made it. I just sat at the computer one day at ended up falling asleep, when I woke I had made that...:)

ionsurge

10-21-2002, 12:12 PM

I love it when that happens, I made a few at home, but now I am at work, so I can't attach anything.

I will post some later.

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 12:30 PM

I whipped up a new logo.

A little more creative but still clean and small in size, well it could be if it wasn't this big..

AC what do you think of this?
http://24.226.62.28/projectodyssey/acjavascripts2.png

ionsurge

10-21-2002, 12:31 PM

Now that is a lot better!

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 12:47 PM

Cool, thanks.:D

Ha ha, I just got bored - http://24.226.62.28/projectodyssey/me.png

Mhtml

10-21-2002, 01:04 PM

I think we have gotten a little off topic, started out as advice for the pricing of websites.

Maybe this thread should be closed and a new thread be posted for improving the site because I'm sure fellow codingforians will be decieved by the thread subject.

whackaxe

10-21-2002, 02:56 PM

theyll probably never get down to here!i like the tick for the Jon your logo but the contrast between the black and dark red isnt clear enough

ACJavascript

10-21-2002, 04:11 PM

NICE!!! Mhtml DUDE,, THATS AWSOME!!! :D:D

I'm USING IT!!!

CAN I?

ACJavascript

10-21-2002, 04:14 PM

Your right Mhtml,,, I'm starting a new thread entiteld Websites and there designs..:D see you guys there

ionsurge

10-21-2002, 05:13 PM

I guess no one would actually post anymore, would they?

;)

Nope. Thought not.

Ah, this thread has met its end. Those who want to find out how this thread continues, go here:

http://www.codingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=39461#post39461

Ionsurge.

doni

10-23-2002, 01:52 AM

whammy

10-27-2002, 03:53 AM

Mhtml you're only 15? Jeez. You definitely seem to have a better grasp of most of the stuff I recommend in the ASP forum than the majority. ;)

I wish that when I was 15 the 'net was at its current stage. I would be rich now. ;)

Oops, I posted more. ;)

Mhtml

10-27-2002, 08:20 AM

Lol, I can't wait till I'm older. I need to be 17 before I can legally own my own business in Australia so it has to be registered in my father's name this Christmas when I commence trading.

I seem to find ASP extremely easy to pick up, I got to I guess a low intermediate level in a few weeks.

ionsurge

10-27-2002, 08:26 AM

I am getting pretty good on Asp, thanx to MHtml.

Cheers.

Ionsurge.

Mhtml

10-27-2002, 01:47 PM

I'm almost completed a new script which you can download and rip apart if you want ionsurge.

it uses select, insert adn delete functions of sql as well as making good use of subs.

I'll Pm ya the download address when I am done.

ionsurge

10-27-2002, 02:34 PM

Cheers MHtml - .asp rules!

Ionsurge.

badboyleo2002

10-29-2002, 02:57 AM

Hi guys,
I just happened to follow up on this thread. Ion, your site looks good by the way. You mentioned using wiremesh in your site. What application did you use to create that? Photoshop?

ionsurge

10-29-2002, 09:31 AM

I am not sure what you mean, but I use alsorts of programs that I have purchased over the last few years, like SoftImage, Bryce, occasionally Photoshop but that isn't so good, and my newest baby, Maya 4 (- not 4.5 :() which is amazing, and unbelievably breathtaking, but I have had to save for that for ages to get it.

You can create wiremeshes with these, and other software, like Swift 3D - actually the list is too long to actually mention seeing as you could figure it out.

Thank you tho for the comments, they are appreciated and taken into account.

Ionsurge.