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View Full Version : YWDA Update!



gsnedders
08-25-2005, 07:08 PM
We're launching at 20:00 BST on the 1st September at http://ywda.org/

Get your.. umm... Grape Juice out! :D

gsnedders
08-25-2005, 08:53 PM
Site Review? Umm? How's this a site review?

Tristan Gray
08-25-2005, 09:02 PM
The counter text is a little weak. Young Web Developers Association sounds awful. It's like taking the worst part of web development communities and amassing it all in one place. Maybe not a bad idea if that place is a dark staircase that leads into a dank cellar where a large man wearing leather is weilding a bloody shovel.

Single Paradox
08-25-2005, 09:09 PM
So you're saying that young web developers stink? I'm 13, take a look at my site. I think it's pretty good anyway...

Ranger56
08-25-2005, 09:11 PM
The counter text is a little weak. Young Web Developers Association sounds awful. It's like taking the worst part of web development communities and amassing it all in one place. Maybe not a bad idea if that place is a dark staircase that leads into a dank cellar where a large man wearing leather is weilding a bloody shovel.

...So you think that just because we're younger than you we suck? THIS IS WHY I HATE HTML-FORUMS.

chilipie
08-25-2005, 09:14 PM
Hey, chill guys.

Tristan Gray
08-25-2005, 09:26 PM
...So you think that just because we're younger than you we suck? THIS IS WHY I HATE HTML-FORUMS.

No, I'm saying you suck because you blow-up and misunderstand everything. :) I'm saying that generally when I think about young web developers I associate them with outbursts, anger, bad spelling, bad grammar, and general annoyance.

I will readily admit that this is not all of them, but the kind to make an age-specific web developers website probably are pretty accurately described by the above.

Paradox, your name alone betrays your age. The site is decent, I like the general graphic concept, but it helps to make your point if it doesn't send me an error404 page. Nice site though.

Anyway, I'm thinking of starting the TWDC. That way we can limit discussion to how cool plaid looked on Kurt Cobain and how we hate people who mis-use the phrase Kafka-esque. heh.
(Tweenage Web-Development Consortium)

Graft-Creative
08-25-2005, 09:28 PM
bring back National Service and enforced chimney sweeping for all under 18s, that's what I say!

Jesting - glad you guys are getting it together at last, it'll stand you in good stead (not exactly gonna harm your CVs/Resumes)

Good look with it all.

I must admit, I've never thought the words young and developers sat comfortably in the same phrase: I would have stuck with young web designers - just my opinion.

Gary

Tristan Gray
08-25-2005, 09:31 PM
William Blake:

A little black thing in the snow,
Crying "weep! weep!" in notes of woe!
"Where are thy father and mother? Say!"
"They are both gone up to the church to pray.

"Because I was happy upon the heath,
And smiled among the winter's snow,
They clothed me in the clothes of death,
And taught me to sing the notes of woe.

"And because I am happy and dance and sing,
They think they have done me no injury,
And are gone to praise God and his priest and king,
Who make up a heaven of our misery."

jkd
08-25-2005, 09:46 PM
Hey, take it easy here.

A bunch of us old-school WA-er's tried launching a youngdevelopers.com when we were like, 12-14 (myself included), and we received a much more positive response. Our aims were to write tutorials geared towards similarly aged "developers", but we were also lazy and never got around to it. Slightly different goals as far as I understand, but still a similar premise. So warm up to it and be encouraging. It's good to get involved at an early age, as long as you don't forget how old you are and still remember to go outside and have fun. :)

Crake
08-25-2005, 11:55 PM
old or young...you dont conmpare standards to people who have more experience some people learn easy some hard you do the best you can do..and deal with it. if your still struggling codingforums, friends will allways help you.

well done for getting this far codingforums.

Kurashu
08-26-2005, 02:31 AM
I don't think any one was comparing standards to people. However, the fact still stands that while some of the YDWAers may be talented and mature, the majority of the members will be immature and blow up at the first hint of sarcasm or opinion that disagrees with their beliefs. Trust me, I deal with teenagers year old on a daily basis. Tristian wasn't saying "You're young, therefore you suck" he was saying "You're young, therefore most of you will be immature." That latter is a fair statement.

Ranger56
08-26-2005, 03:16 AM
I'm saying that generally when I think about young web developers I associate them with outbursts, anger, bad spelling, bad grammar, and general annoyance.

You sad, sad [censored].

Watch the language, we do have rules; please be more respectful to other members. -OG

AaronW
08-26-2005, 03:46 AM
You sad, sad [censored].

I'm confused... Are you trying to prove his point? :eek:

I don't know about "Young Web Developers" myself. It seems too... Specific. It could just as well be "Black Web Developers". Your age should be irrelevant. What's key here is that you're relatively new to the field, and thus "New" or "Beginner" would be better adjectives, I think. You could then provide a site with clearly-written tutorials (as was the goal with the previous attempt at a youth-based site) but the whole "we're young" thing would be a section of a bigger site. Eventually, not too long from now, you won't be "young developers" anymore, and it's just going to be the "Young Web Developers' Association" with a bunch of adults around and the young ones will likely feel alienated. Ya know?

Green Beast
08-26-2005, 03:57 AM
Good luck guys. I'm happier seeing you do this than to be doing others less-productive things.

My hat's off to ya'.

Anyway, I'm probably more of a n00b than you kids, but I'm a whole lot older. I just started doing web development very late in life.

Mike

@Tristen: be careful, my friend, wide generalizations will almost always trouble someone.

Kurashu
08-26-2005, 03:57 AM
I actually feel like it is young people rather than young developers. I'm sure that something like 75% of n00bs are 12-15 year olds. And I'd associate n00bs with the qualities Tristan outlined. I am, however, not saying that the YWDA is a bunch of n00bs. But do be prepared to deal with them.

Nightfire
08-26-2005, 06:06 AM
TBH, I don't know what you class as young? To a 50 year old, 40 is young, 15 year old, 7 is young. To me, 18 and below is young and I wouldn't want to hire anyone below 18 to do a site for me, and I struggled alot to get work when I was under 18.

Good luck with ya site anyway, but I would think of a better name for it

oracleguy
08-26-2005, 06:45 AM
I don't know about "Young Web Developers" myself. It seems too... Specific. It could just as well be "Black Web Developers". Your age should be irrelevant. What's key here is that you're relatively new to the field, and thus "New" or "Beginner" would be better adjectives, I think. You could then provide a site with clearly-written tutorials (as was the goal with the previous attempt at a youth-based site) but the whole "we're young" thing would be a section of a bigger site. Eventually, not too long from now, you won't be "young developers" anymore, and it's just going to be the "Young Web Developers' Association" with a bunch of adults around and the young ones will likely feel alienated. Ya know?

I have to agree, that'd be a better idea.


Site Review? Umm? How's this a site review?
Well, it pretty much is, and self promotion is technically against the rules but if it were a site review it is fine. Plus weren't you looking for feedback anyways?

evo
08-26-2005, 08:27 AM
Firstly, good luck with the venture - I am not happy with the red countdown that should either be a very pale blue, or white.

Secondly, and more importantly as O stated, this is not a site review, nor a review of any kind. It therefore falls against CF rule 1.3.



No advertisements- CodingForums.com is not the classified ads. Do not post advertisements/ self promotion/ spam of any kind. Doing so will get you banned.

Tristan Gray
08-26-2005, 02:17 PM
But yeah, I just don't get why you'd limit yourself to a particular age group. Like I guess if you were going to try to do some generation X-specific thing (betrays my own age) and believed that only people of your own generation could understand the stylistic design choices you were making that'd be cool as hell. You guys could become some sort of new artful elite. But generally I find trying to pigeon-hole your audience leads to stagnation because you don't get responsible criticism like you do if say some uppity young jerk who thinks he has the world figured out by his early twenties comes along and starts ranting.

The reality is that you fellas will be much better web developers in the long run than almost all of my generation and earlier. I only learned about the internet when I was in grade eight or something. I was an operator on an irc channel, heh, the power! The responsibility! I encourage young people to take part in web development and graphic design, but I do generalize. We all do. I accept fully and anticipate outliers in my generalizations, and also leave room for the possibility of inaccuracy with them. But until my generalizations are generally disaproven, I will probably stick to them.

Green Beast
08-26-2005, 02:39 PM
[...]But until my generalizations are generally disaproven, I will probably stick to them.

Guilty until proven innocent, huh? I get it.

Mike

Tristan Gray
08-26-2005, 02:58 PM
Innocent until proven guilty may be fine for a court of law, but it is a fool who goes into this world supposing justice. Your judgements can only be predicated on experience, and so until you have experience to change them you cannot help them.

If I grab a hot frying pan, I may generalize that all objects that glow red cause pain. Although this may not get at the heart of the matter, it is certainly better than continuing to burn myself. (That is actually how I learned about heat when I was like three years old, we had an old wood stove and a cast iron frying pan)

gsnedders
08-26-2005, 03:25 PM
Well, it pretty much is, and self promotion is technically against the rules but if it were a site review it is fine. Plus weren't you looking for feedback anyways?
As you may remember, Ollie (chilipie) posted a topic here about his idea in January, so the project more or less started here. It was either start a new topic (which I knew would be against the rules), or bump an old one, and possibly get told off for bumping it :rolleyes:

Green Beast
08-26-2005, 04:30 PM
Innocent until proven guilty may be fine for a court of law, but it is a fool who goes into this world supposing justice. Your judgements can only be predicated on experience, and so until you have experience to change them you cannot help them.

If I grab a hot frying pan, I may generalize that all objects that glow red cause pain. Although this may not get at the heart of the matter, it is certainly better than continuing to burn myself. (That is actually how I learned about heat when I was like three years old, we had an old wood stove and a cast iron frying pan)

@ Tristan:

I wouldn't touch a glowing red cast iron pan as the chances of it being hot and my burning myself would be rather high. Hopefully you didn't get burned too many times before getting smart about the pan.

Young people, however, all people for that matter, really should be treated on an individual basis, though. I'm over 40, yet I have a web developer friend (an actual friend) who is just turned 16. He started web development at age 10. He is amazing and extremely talented. It's not why we're friends, though. This kid is far more mature-acting than many 20-30-somethings I know. When I first met him (online) I had assumed he was my age, not my daughter's age. I had assumed this because he is so well-written and he carries himself in an exemplary manner. I know another fellow, also a talented developer, this one in his 20s, but he acts extremely immature and I really don't care for the fellow. The point here is is that while age often times IS indicative of what to expect, only fools and bigots assume this up-front and apply labels to broad groups of people without really knowing them. This includes kids.

Put yourself in their shoes, Tristan. How would you feel if you were that age and trying to do something productive while everyone around you, who should be offering you encouragement, is giving you grief for being a kid. That would suck in my opinion. Just imagine someone labeling or pre-judging you without even knowing your name or where you're from, and who you really are. And based on your age alone. Now how do you like it?

You sound jaded, Tristan. And I must say I'm sorry to realize this. The last time we ran into each other was on another forum, SitePoint, I think, and you seem like a really decent guy, and I think you are, now, still based on the initial exchanges, but this doesn't cast a favorable light. But then, who cares, right?

@ YWDA:

Remember you'll encounter people, many people, who won't give you the time of day because you're young. All I can say is to NOT react in a negative way but either respond maturely or not at all. I say this because teenage-ism is a stigma which can be overcome, it's just not that easy because of a bunch of bad apples have spoiled the lot. I, too, am very guarded about kids, but I do try to let them tell me who they are before I jump to conclusions and decide who they are without their input. But what I'm saying here is due to the way things are in the world, you have to try twice as hard to not trip landmines of hate if you follow me, but it can be done. And once people get over the fact that you're mature-acting kids, you'll find many of them will open up to you.

Man, sorry for this rant. I just hate to see things go in this direction unnecessarily.

Mike

oracleguy
08-26-2005, 06:43 PM
As you may remember, Ollie (chilipie) posted a topic here about his idea in January, so the project more or less started here. It was either start a new topic (which I knew would be against the rules), or bump an old one, and possibly get told off for bumping it :rolleyes:

I never forget, and thats why the thread didn't get zapped the second I saw it. I brought it to George's attention and he moved it here.

gsnedders
08-26-2005, 07:06 PM
I never forget, and thats why the thread didn't get zapped the second I saw it. I brought it to George's attention and he moved it here.
Never? What was the first thing your mum ever said to you? :D

Anyhow, thanks for not zapping it, I thought because of the beginning of YWDA, it had a right to be here, and people here to know.


Firstly, good luck with the venture - I am not happy with the red countdown that should either be a very pale blue, or white.
The final design looks nothing like what is currently up. If anyone finds any similarities when the new design goes live on the 1st, you can call me a liar.

gsnedders
08-26-2005, 07:08 PM
I just meant to get the quote and edit my previous post... Woops!

Single Paradox
08-27-2005, 12:36 AM
My actual site is http://www.singleparadox.com .. sorry for the 404... but I understand guys, I might be one of the few kid nerds that don't outburst. Yes, I like to think that I am good for my age but hey you proved me wrong I guess. Well we might just be a bunch of dumb ol' kids but I hate to say it but I've seen a lot of noobishness with the adults here as well. I don't want to get into a fight because that would prove Tristan's point (Ranger), and I just want you all to know that I got a little too hasty with my previous answer and I apologise.

(Tristan, any spelling mistakes in there? :D )

JamieR
08-27-2005, 12:44 AM
Some people have been getting ahead of themselves here - chill folks.

Anyway, this looks like it's the beginning of what is, hopefully, going to be a long and successful time for the YWDA. I know that people can get the wrong impression, and just think that the YWDA is about a few kids starting up a club or something, but it's more than that. Wait until the new site is up and you'll see what I mean...

Graft-Creative
08-27-2005, 02:22 AM
Remember you'll encounter people, many people, who won't give you the time of day because you're young.

Tis always the way, old or young: You'll always be too tall, too short, too fat, too thin, too experienced, not experienced enough.

It's how you deal with it that counts, and from what I know of the YWDA team (and I feel I know some of them quite well now) is that they are far from the stereotypical arsey, snotty teenager that's being insinuated - seriously, we should encourage and nurture this, and not let any sense of cynicism and jadedness dampen their enthusiasm.

I understand Tristan's and Kurashu's points, but I think we can clearly seperat the wheat and the chaff: we know these guys, we see how they talk, how much they know - let's give 'em a chance eh? :thumbsup:

Gary

AaronW
08-27-2005, 04:08 AM
Still though, letting your ages act as the fulcrum for your entire organization strikes me as a bad idea. People of any age can be new to the Web trade, and when it comes to those looking to hire a Webmaster, they're going to be looking at portfolios more than anything. Age won't matter. If you let them down, it won't be because of your age; it'll be inexperience or poor ogranization, things which even adults can have problems with.

I think what the Web needs is a more clear, cut-to-the-chase approach to Web teachings. Less preaching and more teaching about CSS and standards. I think Webmonkey.com did a good job of this already, though.

rmedek
08-27-2005, 04:25 AM
I want the YWDA to do well (should be obvious by the fact that I bought the domain for them), but I have always had one issue: the YWDA doesn't actually DO anything. So, regardless of what Weazel said earlier...

I know that people can get the wrong impression, and just think that the YWDA is about a few kids starting up a club or something, but it's more than that. Wait until the new site is up and you'll see what I mean...... it actually IS about a few kids starting up a club. I mean, sure, they have goals and aims and whatnot, but if it's just a matter of talking about how cool it is that they're young and just built a tableless website ... well, that's just a club.

It's not as if I think that's a bad thing. I think that's great, but I also think it means everyone can relax a bit. After all, if I wanted to start the DWDA (the Drummer's Web Designer Association), who has the the right to tell me what my club should be about?

Now, when there's an actual site up, with actual content, and an actual mission, THEN I'm going to get super critical. :D Until then, I'm chalking the whole "countdown" up to shameless self promotion.

Kurashu
08-27-2005, 07:09 AM
Clubs can go a long way. Just look at the Communists. =P

And no, that's not me saying that the YWDA is the Commie party of the internet, that position has already been filled.

Green Beast
08-27-2005, 07:37 AM
I wonder if this thread would be going as long as it is if it were a seniors' group passing their days by getting together for a regular tea-and-design get together. :p

gsnedders
09-01-2005, 09:12 PM
Yehawwwwwwww!!!!!! We're go!!! :)

JamieR
09-01-2005, 09:39 PM
Yeah, after what..8 months of god knows what, we're proud to say that the YWDA is officially GO :p

Have a look at these links/threads (and this one) if you're wondering what on earth the YWDA is..

http://www.ywda.org
http://www.codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=50497
http://www.jamierees.co.uk/blog

etc...

Thanks to the all the people who have supported the YWDA so far, especially Rich ;)

Jamie.

Green Beast
09-01-2005, 09:47 PM
Site looks pretty nice too. The text needs refinement in my opinion, and the links should be tweaked in the CSS (need colors). But it's pretty nice anyway.

I am curious about something. You have the requirement to join (Rainbow Flowers) which is a cool idea, but why does it have to be coded in XHTML? Why isn't HTML an option? It seems the rquirement should be XHTML or HTML, but written the the strict specification.

My two cents. Good luck!

Mike

mcdougals4all
09-01-2005, 09:48 PM
With all due respect guys, the design is pretty stark and lacking any kind of unique touch and feel.


but I have always had one issue: the YWDA doesn't actually DO anythingAfter seeing the new site I have to agree. As a visitor, after viewing all of the pages, I'm not clear who your target audience is, designers, clients, both?

The following passage implies you are promoting members' design services, yet there is no explanation regarding how clients are matched with designers/developers, and no apparent means of contact.

YWDA brings the question to you - who would you rather hire? A 13 year old web developer, who is proficient in the latest standards-compliants technologies, or a 33 year old who uses deprecated, generator created HTML which leaves your websites bloated and slower loading than their XHTML/CSS compliant counterparts?I'm not knocking what you guys are attemtping, but I'd suggest refining the message you're conveying, what the YWDA has to offer.

JamieR
09-01-2005, 09:58 PM
our target audience is both designers and coders/developers. I see your point about the message on the site, I'll ask Geoffers, Ollie and Andrew to see what they think, if they don't read this anytime soon.

_Aerospace_Eng_
09-01-2005, 10:10 PM
I think the forum could be better integrated into the site. It doesn't really go with the whole layout, once on the forum, you have to click the logo to get back to the main again. Maybe put links to the rest of the site on the forum as well. I think you are still lacking some content. Why did it take so long to complete? Was it because of many redesigns or what? It looks like a rather simple layout that can be done in probably less than a day. The forum might have been the more tedious part to finish.

NancyJ
09-01-2005, 11:18 PM
One thing that I know was discussed before but I dont see any mention of on the site... what counts as young?
Also what happens when you get too old - do you get kicked out? ;)

rmedek
09-02-2005, 11:42 AM
Well guys, the site is official now so does this get to be an offical site review?

If so, here are my immediate questions/issues:


What does the YWDA do? You say the site is targeted towards young developers, yet the home page copy suggests the site is geared towards selling the services of young developers. So, are you guys selling yourselves or helping yourselves?
Speaking of the home page, the copywriting needs to be seriously improved if you guys are trying to convey professionalism. At the least, fix the grammatical errors.
For all that wait, the design is a little lackluster. You guys are young, and the site should reflect that. Inject a little personality in there.
Again, what does the YWDA do? I get the feeling it's no more than a club, and if it's a club the least you should have is a t-shirt and a button or something.


I have to be critical because I want you guys to do well. :D

BroChris
09-02-2005, 06:54 PM
Just checked the site briefly, but I didn't notice any examples of work done by you youngen's. I don't care how old a designer is; if he's got a good portfolio, that's what determines how good he is. I've seen some very good portfolios by very young people. Throw some good examples on there!

NeilKelty
09-02-2005, 11:12 PM
Just checked the site briefly, but I didn't notice any examples of work done by you youngen's. I don't care how old a designer is; if he's got a good portfolio, that's what determines how good he is. I've seen some very good portfolios by very young people. Throw some good examples on there!

No ones really joined yet. I'm working on my submission. However, I'm questioning something. The joinging as "both" requires you to extract data from an XML document. The purpose of the YWDA is to promote web standards, well formed docuements, etc. I find it ironic that the XML document to join the "Well Formed Documents, Web Standards Promotion Group" (YWDA) is not well formed. Should it be something like:


<flower>
<name>Rose</name>
<color>White</color> **Whatever spelling you want**
</flower>


Just a question.

gsnedders
09-02-2005, 11:39 PM
In the real world, you probably won't get a semantically correct XML document to parse, but one more like this, exported from Excel. This is not all to hard to extract data from if you use the PHP functions, in fact, many of you may remember F1 Unleashed, where the championship page was actually generated by PHP from an Excel XML file.

NeilKelty
09-03-2005, 01:49 AM
In the real world, you probably won't get a semantically correct XML document to parse, but one more like this, exported from Excel. This is not all to hard to extract data from if you use the PHP functions, in fact, many of you may remember F1 Unleashed, where the championship page was actually generated by PHP from an Excel XML file.

I know its not hard, but It was just kind of ironic.

NeilKelty
09-03-2005, 01:50 AM
In the real world, you probably won't get a semantically correct XML document to parse, but one more like this, exported from Excel. This is not all to hard to extract data from if you use the PHP functions, in fact, many of you may remember F1 Unleashed, where the championship page was actually generated by PHP from an Excel XML file.

I know its not hard, but It was just kind of ironic. But the point is we should push for standards by setting an example.

Nightfire
09-03-2005, 04:50 AM
I'd offer explantions of what certain things mean, ie WYSIWYG. No-one is going to know what that means unless they've been 'around' on the net on forums like this.

Many clients I get know as much about making sites as I know about time travelling. You need a way to explain abreviations, you can't be too 'technical'.. most my clients don't even know what a text editor means. Explain what XHTML, CSS, HTML, HTTP, etc etc means. Otherwise it'll mean nothing to someone wanting to hire one of you.

Need to explain what web standards are, and what the advantages of using them are. Joe bloggs wouldn't have any idea about this, nor care, unless you pointed it out.



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