Damn Flash straight to hell...

Unbelievable...

Almost through completing a 'two-semester long' course in HTML/DHTML/Java...

But, half of that time was wasted on 'Photoshop', Image Ready, and now DreamWeaver and Flash... (!?) - Wysiwyg?

Apparently the itinerary was set up as a crash=course for newbies to the world 1's and 0's, rather than the world of HyperThread and algorithm's...

What is really ticking me off though... and won't leggo my ego??
I have been 'toying' with Flash for a week now - and haven't gotten 'anywhere' in terms of progress [other than figuring out where I could find some features on the menu dropdown!]

I wonder... except for graphics geared towards Fancy Marketing, 'what' can Flash do that you can't do in DHTML!? Most people are not capable of viewing Flash Animations anyways - or have errors and/or compatability issues with Macromedia and Windows... !?

(I 'do' have one link that supersedes all others in the artistic arena(s)... But I see 'no' correlation between any Macromedia products and 'this site!?'...)

Unbelievable...

Almost through completing a 'two-semester long' course in HTML/DHTML/Java...

But, half of that time was wasted on 'Photoshop', Image Ready, and now DreamWeaver and Flash... (!?) - Wysiwyg?

Apparently the itinerary was set up as a crash=course for newbies to the world 1's and 0's, rather than the world of HyperThread and algorithm's...

What is really ticking me off though... and won't leggo my ego??
I have been 'toying' with Flash for a week now - and haven't gotten 'anywhere' in terms of progress [other than figuring out where I could find some features on the menu dropdown!]

I wonder... except for graphics geared towards Fancy Marketing, 'what' can Flash do that you can't do in DHTML!? Most people are not capable of viewing Flash Animations anyways - or have errors and/or compatability issues with Macromedia and Windows... !?

(I 'do' have one link that supersedes all others in the artistic arena(s)... But I see 'no' correlation between any Macromedia products and 'this site!?'...)

Flash can do much more advanced animations than DHTML -- but instead of thinking of it for just web browser; I often use it as an alternative movie for presentations other than powerpoint which can be lame.

I was compelled to commit myself to learning Flash for [basically] the same reasons!
"Well? If and/or when the time comes, it's either this or 'PowerPoint!'... :eek: "

As for 'Photoshop' and ImageReady... I know that there are 'tons' of Graphics Software that uses less scripts and codes than Adobe when making hot-spots, roll-overs... etc.

I like Jasc and AnimationshipPro... (Although I 'hate' Preset animations!)

The layering capabilities and precision could easily surpass Photoshop's...

(Although, I have most 'all' of them installed... :rolleyes: )

Nah screw Flash - learn SVG instead - it can do everything that Flash can do, but it's markup based with a completely open DOM. You don't need proprietary software to make it, you don't need to learn a proprietary scripting language to add interactivity, and it's properly accessible because it's real markup, not binary data.

I was compelled to commit myself to learning Flash for [basically] the same reasons!
"Well? If and/or when the time comes, it's either this or 'PowerPoint!'... :eek: "

As for 'Photoshop' and ImageReady... I know that there are 'tons' of Graphics Software that uses less scripts and codes than Adobe when making hot-spots, roll-overs... etc.

I like Jasc and AnimationshipPro... (Although I 'hate' Preset animations!)

The layering capabilities and precision could easily surpass Photoshop's...

(Although, I have most 'all' of them installed... :rolleyes: )

Well, we all know that WYSI editors make horrid code -- that's why there comes a point when we all de-evolve and go back to hand coding:)

Regardless of their code errors, Photoshop has an ecstatic amount of features that those other programs don't do. I don't think we can fully compare them program to program.

Nah screw Flash - learn SVG instead - it can do everything that Flash can do...

While I agree with the rest of the statement, that sentance tweaks me...
So is SVG a "thick-client" too? (capable of decent/reliable client side processing)
Can SVG send and receive server requests without a page refresh?
Can SVG facilitate multi-stream audio+video conferencing with an "all members manipulable" app. running in the middle aswell?
Can SVG also replace Director/Shockwave as far as CD distribution? (eg: Macromedia MX Suite's initial installation app. is Flash, so are many other similar apps.)

I'm not trying to be-little you, brothercake, I simply have no knowledge of SVG's capabilities so I thought I'd take this chance to quiz you about the real power of Flash and the possibility of SVG filling all those roles. :)

Oh, and about Flash's proprietry language..would it make you feel better if you thought of it as another twisted and malformed child of javascript?
Didn't think so.. :D

I wonder... except for graphics geared towards Fancy Marketing, 'what' can Flash do that you can't do in DHTML!? Most people are not capable of viewing Flash Animations anyways - or have errors and/or compatability issues with Macromedia and Windows... !?

Unbelievable... someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

if you take the time to read the manual and go throught th built in tutoirlas you would find out why flash is so good.

as for FLASH vs. DHTML:
-Flash is completly crossbrowser (IE comes with it, and in mozzila at least, you just need to install the plugin which even the biggest technophobe could do) where as DHTML needs differnt code for differnt browsers which takes time that you could be using making better flash animations.

-Flash can import JPEG, MP3, AVI, WAV, BMP... files for use in it

-Flash can be used with XML, PHP and its own propriety server software for server side apps

-Flash scripts are still quite small in size, and in the worst of cases, you can use a preloader

as for photoshop, could you suggest a better Graphics Program?

if you choose a rubbish course, go rant somewhere else

The capabilities of flash are the features of a piece of software.

The capabilities of SVG go way beyond their own vocabulary - they draw on the methods of wider technologies - XML and the DOM.

So this means that anything which is possible with client-side scripting, or client-server interaction, is possible with SVG as the visual interface.
So is SVG a "thick-client" too? (capable of decent/reliable client side processing)
Yes - in fact using the Adobe plugin you get better DOM support in IE. Many of the browser inconsistencies are wiped out because the SVG DOM uses standard methods which are implemented in the plugin, rather than relying solely on the browser's own scripting engine. The end result is a javascript-based scripting model without the pain of client ambiguity.
Can SVG send and receive server requests without a page refresh?
You can do this by creating elements that make server requests, or using XML methods to retrieve data from the server (eg, XPointer references).
Can SVG facilitate multi-stream audio+video conferencing with an "all members manipulable" app. running in the middle aswell?
How so - you mean an SVG-based interface to embedded streaming video? yeah it could do that - SVG is just XML - anything where you can use an XHTML interface you could replace that with SVG.
Can SVG also replace Director/Shockwave as far as CD distribution? (eg: Macromedia MX Suite's initial installation app. is Flash, so are many other similar apps.)
Not sure what you mean ..?
Oh, and about Flash's proprietry language..would it make you feel better if you thought of it as another twisted and malformed child of javascript?
Didn't think so.. :D
No :D Is actionscript publically extensible? Can you do OO scripting and method prototyping with it? Is knowledge of it useful to other applications?

So back at you mate - can Flash even come close to the capabilities of SVG:

- is it accessible?
- can it be indexed and searched?
- can you generate it on the server with PHP, ASP or any server side process at all, without any special extensions?
- can you do on-the-fly transforms between graphics and plain text?
- do you have a choice of built-in animation syntax (SMIL), or the option of doing all animation through custom scripting?
- can anyone make and distribute viewing or generation software for it?
- can you edit movies in a plain-text editor?
- does it have a DOM?
- is it developed independently of the commercial interests of a single company?

The proposed SVG 1.2 is actually designed to take on all of Flash's thick-client capabilities it seems.... rather stupid, implementing a socket interface in the SVG1.2 DOM when the spec isn't related at all.... but eh, however the WG wants to bury it....

:D Sweet, I knew that was the fast way to a good run down on the power of SVG...hehehe, tricked ya :)

Can you do OO scripting and [...] with it? Is knowledge of it useful to other applications?

YES! AS2 allows some pretty decent classing and all classes can be stored as external .as files.

- is it accessible?

Beh, barely.

- can it be indexed and searched?

With great difficulty

- can you generate it on the server with PHP, ASP or any server side process at all, without any special extensions?

Absolutely. Not the entire .swf, but you can create/change a helluva lot at runtime. ColdFusion MX is the bomb for comunicating with Flash. (No suprise considering who makes them both)

- can you do on-the-fly transforms between graphics and plain text?

Huh? I doubt it.

- do you have a choice of built-in animation syntax (SMIL), or the option of doing all animation through custom scripting?

You have the option of traditioanl keyframing, tween based animation, script based animation, or programs such as Discreet Plasma or Swift3D which are full-featured 3D apps designed especially to outout .swf's.

- can anyone make and distribute viewing or generation software for it?

Viewing: no. Editing: Almost.

- can you edit movies in a plain-text editor?

Nup, only classes and resources (functions, etc.)

- does it have a DOM?
- is it developed independently of the commercial interests of a single company?
LOL, no point me answering those two :D

You do realise that I took the view of a hard line Flash user just to get more info about SVG, don't you? :p

Fair play - I'll usually have a drink with the devil's advocate .. but I'll always try to talk him down ;)

Useful info then? I'm making a simple game in SVG at the mo if you're interested - demo at http://www.brothercake.com/games/robot/robot.svg (for which you'll need the Adobe SVG plugin (http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html) if you don't already, and a browser other than mozilla)

I'm making a simple game in SVG at the mo if you're interested - demo at http://www.brothercake.com/games/robot/robot.svg (for which you'll need the Adobe SVG plugin (http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html) if you don't already, and a browser other than mozilla)

A browser other than Mozilla?? Good sir, do you know that of which you ask me with this request?!
:eek: //starts up IE...

COOL! Ok, me like very much :thumbsup:
First thing I did was hit the context menu...
Zoom In/Out..looks good so far..
and then; VIEW SOURCE!
Very cool indeed.
As someone who hates keyframing (and has spent the last year keyframing in Flash,3D Max, Maya, Combustion, Shake and Director) I can immedietly appreciate the open nature of SVG. The markup makes a lot of sense straight away if you have any knowledge of its 'sister technologies' and I can see straight away how feasible it would be generate masses of he stuff server-side.
Thanks for that, Brothercake. Much appreciated :D

what exactly is that game going to do? i just see a confused square going in circles.

You see the red square, the checkerboard background, and nothing else?

If that's so you're running an older version of the plugin. You can get the latest from http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html.

I saw a maze like set of blobs with the square turning in circles and moving around a limited portion of the upper left corner. It didn't seem to respond to input. I realize it's a work in progress, it just didn't seem like there was any interactivity or anything. I wasn't sure if perhaps I just overlooked something.

yes I think you have :) The red square moves randomly within its free space. You drag the blocks around and try to clear a path for it to get to hole at the bottom right of the screen. But blocks can only move in their longest direction - tall blocks only go up and down, wide blocks only go side to side.

It's so pretty, brothercake. :thumbsup:

Are Mozilla and IE ever planning to have the Adobe plug-in come with the browser, since it's a standard rather than proprietary? Or will it (could it, even) become implemented directly into the browser, thus avoiding the plug-in in the first place (maybe something like an interpreter, I suppose)?

Happy coding! :)

What I don't understand is if SVG is a "standard" or 'recommendation', why does it require a plug-in made by Adobe? Seems no different than Flash then, except that you don't have to buy a program to make stuff in it. I know, I know, the plug-in is free... for now, but nonetheless, why is it made by Adobe?

I think because it is so similiar to vector artwork -- they just made it XML. If you do an illustration in illustrator and export it to SVG, the code comes out as XML, but it's the same as vector artwork in theory -- a series of mathematical lines that print and display at the highest quality possible. InDesign can do this now too.

That being said, I don't really know why it's a standard... and I agree that I still see the similiarities between it and flash, in regards to the plugin requirements. Can anyone enlighten on this? Seems like another battle between Macromedia and Adobe in the end:)

No it's not a battle, and certainly not MM vs Adobe - we're not talking about two proprietary platforms competing against each other, we're talking about one proprietary product who's niche is coming to an end, versus an open standard that's only just beginning to make some headway.

Adobe were major players in designing and developing the SVG spec, and they already had the experience and technological know-how to produce a high quality SVG renderer, as bradyj said.

There is a Mozilla SVG project - http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/ - they've implemented more of the SVG DOM, but not as much SMIL integration. Eventually you will be able to work with mixed XML documents - XHTML with arbitrary chunks of SVG in it - that kind of stuff. When that happens SVG will really come into its own because you'll be able to use it for design elements with as much ease as GIFs and CSS.

SVG is not bound to a plugin the way Flash inexorably is - but for now, the Adobe plugin is the best way of viewing it.

I think a big think on that site was:

...XML-based as opposed to a closed binary format.


Which I didn't think of before, and makes sense. The weakness in flash is it's closed binary format (as well as some of it's benefit) -- and it's mix with the future of standards.

That being said, I just embedded an image in an SVG file to test, and it was almost 40kb smaller than doing it in a flash file. It also gave me the option to 'link' the file as well, making it one up on flash (though I can link to a library set in flash, I cannot change or adjust that link straight code -- has to be directly in the flash document).

SVG and me just might start an interesting little friendship -- thanks Brothercake :thumbsup:

Which I didn't think of before, and makes sense. The weakness in flash is it's closed binary format (as well as some of it's benefit) -- and it's mix with the future of standards.
Well exactly - the binary format which is Flash's strength is also its weakness - it's only an advanatage for as long as modems are commonly used to access the internet. But even now, modems are less than half of internet users, and only 20% of all page views. That advantage is waning quickly, and becoming a disadvantage as we see how inaccessible and counter-productive binary formats really are for making web pages, just as Java applets were before Flash came along.

If MM were smart they would be looking at SVG and SMIL very seriously, with a view to their products being able to generate it as an option, even if not by default. I once met their European PR manager, who told me in as many words that this will never happen. Thankfully many at Macromedia are not so short sighted as her, so I don't think we'll be waving goodbye to Flash as a brand, but I do believe the days of Flash as a binary format are numbered.

No it's not a battle, and certainly not MM vs Adobe - we're not talking about two proprietary platforms competing against each other, we're talking about one proprietary product who's niche is coming to an end, versus an open standard that's only just beginning to make some headway.Not? I would very much think it is a battle between the two comanies. Adobe has been the major driving force in the SVG project, opposing the Microsoft supported VML, and leading the format specifically towards being a good competitor to Flash. They already have two open but proprietary vector graphics formats, PostScript being textual script based, and PDF being a binary format leaning heavy on their PostScript experiences. SVG is an open communal format instead of proprietary, but it's still very much an Adobe product. Adobe desires to retain their hold as industry leader for vector based formats, so it's only natural that they would try to oppose Flash where they can. However, PostScript and PDF are page description languages, mostly geared towards making static documents that are consistently represented in print media, and are not really optimal for interactivity, multimedia and animation. So, instead they chose to leverage a format that they know they will be one of the best and fastest implementors of, that will get industry wide support since it's an open format where the entire industry be in the development process, but that they will have a very large say in. In other words, they thought SVG was strategically a better choice than rolling their own format. Their influence in SVG can also be seen in that it's not a very nice player in the XML formats scene.
There is a Mozilla SVG project - http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/ - they've implemented more of the SVG DOM, but not as much SMIL integration. Eventually you will be able to work with mixed XML documents - XHTML with arbitrary chunks of SVG in it - that kind of stuff. When that happens SVG will really come into its own because you'll be able to use it for design elements with as much ease as GIFs and CSS.And they're not the only browser developer working on it... Eventually, we'll have native SVG support in all modern browsers. Whether Microsoft decides to join that group of browsers again, through native support or using their new extension model to seamlessly blend in third party plug-ins remains to be seen. However, SVG is more important as a graphics format than a web format thus far, and that's where we see the major current implementations.SVG is not bound to a plugin the way Flash inexorably is - but for now, the Adobe plugin is the best way of viewing it.Well, it's not bound to a plug-in in a longer perspecitve, but in a perspective of a few years, I see no real break ins possible from other direction, unless Adobe SVG Viewer is overrun by other SVG plug-ins.If MM were smart they would be looking at SVG and SMIL very seriously, with a view to their products being able to generate it as an option, even if not by default. I once met their European PR manager, who told me in as many words that this will never happen. Thankfully many at Macromedia are not so short sighted as her, so I don't think we'll be waving goodbye to Flash as a brand, but I do believe the days of Flash as a binary format are numbered.Flash might be a proprietary format, but it's also an open format. Apple QuickTime has an implementation of the Flash binary format. Microsoft have one for exporting static vector graphics in Flash binary form from Expression 3. I'm sure there are others as well.

Macromedia are already building a good XML support in it, and I believe that we'll see Flash supporting SVG in the not too distant future. I really doubt them taking the direction of changing native formats, but I wouldn't be surprised if they added SVG export capability to Flash, and added SVG rendering capability to the Shockwave/Flash plug-in. The benefits of Flash being a binary format can still be seen in download times compared to SVG on 10MBit, and I believe our patience with page rendering, and thus download times, go down with the change to broadband. However, XML based formats have a large gain from gzip, so maybe gzipped SVG will largely eradicate the benefit of the binary format.

Besides, Flash is not limited to the browser any longer. Flash can be made standalone now, which is something I believe Macromedia will play on as hard as they possibly can, because SVG can't really be made standalone and still be said to still be SVG.