2nd Round for Reviewing my Site

[jakenoble]

2nd Round for Reviewing my Site

Hi

Some time ago i got people on here to review my site.

I have fixed everything that was mentioned. If people could go take a look at it again and tell me what you think, that woud be great.

jakenoblewebs (http://www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk)

Thanks in advance

JAKE

[MysteryMan]

All around it doesn't look very pleasing. A website for a webdesigner must be very nice, even if it's ultra simple.

Yours looks for beta, the information isn't formatted nicely, the intro was very boring - bad coloring too.

I can't say there is enough good there to rework the bad. Your main banner doesn't fit on one line.

You don't need descriptions of what the sections are - people know that.

The update column is too thin and really nonsensical.

Also, it looks very similiar to your portfiolo work, which is also very bare.

How long have you been doing WB and what abilities do you have?

[jakenoble]

wow man!

so have u anything constructive to say?

the other sites are in my portfolio but they are not very well coded.

[A1ien51]

The COLORs == BAD

I suggest you play with this:
http://www.colormatch.dk

If I can to your site and saw those colors you have I would leave and find another person to design my site....It burns my eyes trying to read it..

[Nightfire]

I'd take out the 'cheap' reference in your titles and also take the 'quick' out. Everyone knows that if something unique is created cheaply and quickly then you're not going to get professionalism and quality

The text in the right bar thing is too small to read

The news I think should be about promotions and things on your services, not what you've done on other sites

[MysteryMan]

Originally posted by jakenoble
wow man!

so have u anything constructive to say?

the other sites are in my portfolio but they are not very well coded.

I said - there isn't anything I can say other than to be honest. Which includes saying that based upon your own site, as well as your portfolio sites, I'm not really sure who COULDN'T be a web designer.

I don't see any level of structural understanding or artistic talent. What is it people are paying for?

Even some dirt cheap services produce amazing results. I cannot find a positive value to work from, sorry.

[Ember~Daze]

Well...

Since you insist on keeping the Flash intro I'd recommend making it look a little nicer. If you want people to feel that they can get GOOD visual products from your service (not to take any focus off coding of course) then you need to demonstrate that you know a thing or two about graphic art. Sorry to say, and with no offence intended, the Flash intro implies that you won't provide pleasing visuals. Now, this may be completely un-true for I don't know, nor can say if you are any good or not in that particular area. That's why, I'd say that if you want to keep the Flash, then re-do it completely. At least use gradient coloring in the building blocks and re-size them so they are a bit taller. Some shadows, bevels, etc. would help a ton. A texture or two may even fit the look you want. Experiment - play with your options - and don't settle for anything that doesn't make you feel it's as good as it could be.

...well, I'd continue reviewing the main site, but unfortunately the Flash anim stops at the end on "Loading..." and sits there.

Anywho, I'd have to see the rest to say it all needs work, but so far it does. Don't let this all discourage you. Read some tutorials, practice and try different things.

Here's a goods place for graphic art tutorials...

Spoono (http://www.spoono.com)

[jakenoble]

try

www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/jake_noble.php

[jakenoble]

any thoughts on code

[MysteryMan]

Originally posted by jakenoble
try

www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/jake_noble.php

In otherwords the same thing.

It just has no good qualities to go on. The colors are bad, the positioning is cramped in some spots and too wide in others. The sidebar is thin and out of place. the main section is written poorly. Your menu does not even fit on one line and wraps which is poor.

Not too mention the white area looks bleak, and the blue looks horrible for a textual background.

How long have you been doing web design? I agree with Ember, even if you offered me a FREE website I'd probably not do it because it wouldn't be worth having to then go to someone else.

Your site as well as the portfolio just are not anywhere on the course, let alone on par.

There's probably over one million sole-owned web designers on the internet, I'm not sure why one would pick you over them!

[Ember~Daze]

Now looking at the rest of the site, I'd say you need to step down from the plate for a little while and work on improving your skills. I'm not a code critic because I don't consider myself advanced enough to speak on it, but I do feel that I can give my thoughts on the design itself.

Truthfully, I'd 100% re-design the site. I'm not exactly one to speak, but to be a good solo web designer, you need to have sites that work and look good. Both sides are important to me. I know many may not agree at all for different reasons. But, in the case of your site, the visual design needs work. And I'm sure everyone can agree on that.

For example, the color of blue you've chosen as a backing to the main text content is off. Try simply switching the background color (white) with the blue and then changing the font-color to black. After, tweak the background (now blue) to be darker. I know that would involve some work because you'd have to re-do your lil logo in the top left (as it has a white background color to match the current style) but it would be worth it. If not, just come up with a new color scheme. Also, drag that right column with news items closer to the main column and increase the main columns width to fill out the page a bit more (because there would be a ghastly gap after re-positioning the news column) Come to think of it, now I'd recommend re-doing your logo also. Look back to the blurb I did on your Flash and apply it to this.

You can't get down on yourself about this really. You just need to work on web design. Like I said, take a break from the grandiose thoughts of making money through web dev. and just practice yourself to death in every area possible. Then, after a while try again.

Just my opinions. Take them in any manner you please.

[mindlessLemming]

AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!
I told you last time to download a GOOD BROWSER (http://www.mozilla.org) for testing your pages!!!!

Now your right coloumn doesn't line up or look decent in Mozilla or IE!

The layout is totally unbalanced. Learn about design theory such as the rule of thirds and complex spiral. Positioning and size of ALL elements on your site look slapped together and ununified.
Oh, and like the others said, the Lego colour scheme doesn't really work :(

It was better last time (and the last one wasn't all that good).
Sorry man, I usually make sure to give at least 1 positive point per review, but......

[Eskimo]

Don't get too frustrated jakenoble, keep learning and you'll get there.

[jakenoble]

Cheers Eskimo.

Its hard not to really.

[Nightfire]

The comments may seem harsh, but you can't improve with comments that are just saying what they like. You'll get thick skinned to it one day, we've all been in the same shoes at one time.

Practise doing loads of different designs and different styles of sites. After you've done a few designs, you'll go back to this one and have a much better idea on how to design and code it alot better. Happens to us all :)

[jakenoble]

NightFIRE

Do you think the coding is OK, because that was the main problem with it when i first put it up for review.

Now it seems to be layout and colours. Although the more i hear it the more i think it too.

Would you suggest planning designs, layouts, colours, logos and images on paper first?

Keep them comments coming people!

[MysteryMan]

You should ALWAYS do all your design on paper. Never touch the computer until you have it all perfect on paper.

There's only a couple basic formats for websites - it's no mystery :)

You should do it on graph paper - and on lineless paper too.

The entire design should be done. Also, you should know all the basic design concepts by memory, and know what kind of site each is normally used for.

Then, once you've done your entire design on paper, then you can go code it. Then if you alter it fine - but you should have an entire design on paper.

[Nightfire]

TBH the code could do with some work, you should really think about the tags you use. Say if you wanted a heading, use the heading <h1-6> tags, if you was going to list some information, use list tags, if you was displaying tabular data, use tables. Tables for layout are nasty, so try to avoid them as much as you can.

Everyone has different ways of creating a design before coding, I've tried everyway I've heard people suggest but I can only do a layout from what I see in my head straight into code. I'm no good at drawing what I see, but I can code it.

I usually end up spending a long time looking through sites at places such as http://www.coolhomepages.com just to get some ideas of what looks good and what doesn't. It doesn't always work though, as from my last site review, my site had near enough completely changed just from a few extra touches and suggestions.

Just use the comments as a means of improving and not as a personal attack and you'll be on your way to improving codewise abnd skillwise. Just remember you can't impress everyone, there'll always be someone who hates your site.

[jakenoble]

Hmmmmm

NIGHTFIRE.

I see what you mean maybe about <H> tags.

But i have not used tables for layout, only for news, which is i a table. And i have used <ul><li>list</li></ul> for lists so there is no problem there, is there?

i'll try the paper way, well i'll try all ways and see what i come up with, keep yours eyes peeled for another review on my site.

[Len Whistler]

QUOTE: keep yours eyes peeled for another review on my site.

Please don't torture us anymore. Once is enough.


Leonard Whistler
http://www.stubby.ca

[MysteryMan]

Originally posted by Len Whistler
QUOTE: keep yours eyes peeled for another review on my site.

Please don't torture us anymore. Once is enough.


Leonard Whistler
http://www.stubby.ca


:)

Should a web designer be asking others to review their work? I never did :(

[Nightfire]

Well this:

<table width="20%">
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_time">19/2/2004</td>

</tr>
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_item">Flashpoint FX added to Current Work</td>
</tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
</table>
<table width="20%">
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_time">17/2/2004</td>

</tr>
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_item">Jake Noble Webs updated to W3 XHTML 1.0 Web Standard </td>
</tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
</table>
<table width="20%">
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_time">17/2/2004</td>

</tr>
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_item">Clean Estates Site updated</td>
</tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
</table>
<table width="20%">
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_time">9/2/2004</td>

</tr>
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_item">CSS applied to Gl5.org for improved appearance</td>
</tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
</table>
<table width="20%">
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_time">8/2/2004</td>

</tr>
<tr>
<td width="20%" class="ntext_item">Home Farm Cottages demo site added to Current Work</td>
</tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
<tr><td>
</td></tr>
</table>
Why's this a table? Looks like a list to me

<edit>Please, no more slagging him off without any practical help. No one started off with perfect sites and if you say you did I wouldn;t believe you. Just give him a chance and help him with what's wrong</edit>

[Nightfire]

This is what I see using firefox, which I'm sure you'd agree is unusable

http://nightfire.org.uk/wa/wa1.gif

[MysteryMan]

I think that people here, such as myself, are being honest in saying that it's not honestly possible to "help" him.

All I can say is you should be practicing BEFORE you attempt to actually make a vital set.

Yes most people (although not noone since I am included) do not make a good site there first time around, but most people don't make a company web design site they plan on using THE FIRST TIME AROUND............

I cannot say "change this and this" and end up saying anything other than the entire code and the entire design are all bad.

That's the answer - I don't know if people helping him would ever make him produce a good site on his own.

I would recommend one thing only:

go to lots of company sites, download the website and view the code in your graphical/code program (frontpage) and work on altering their code to simplify it, and study how it is made.

[Nightfire]

I think that people here, such as myself, are being honest in saying that it's not honestly possible to "help" him.
That's way below the belt. If you're not gonna help, then don't respond to his posts. What's the point in putting someone new to this area down? Without help, how is he going to get better? You must've had a site you thought was the best thing ever and thought you're coding was excellent at one time and worth creating a business with at one point.

The rest of what you say I agree with, but please stop putting ppl down due to their newness or inexperience. It doesn't gain you any brownie points or respect

[MysteryMan]

I'm not putting anyone down.

If someone is very insufficient in what they're trying to do, and they ASK about their production, they're gonna get the real answer.

Telling someone how they are is not putting them down, it's telling them how they are.

Not knowing how to code a website is hardly an insult. I can't sing for **** - and don't feel insulted if someone tells me. The point is his ability is way low for trying to charge money to do it. And I have suggested ample sources for him to become a guru.

Noone is putting anyone down - they're telling it like it is, and criticizing someone who asked to be criticized....

The suggestions were given. His goal of making the site proper is presupposing he has the knowledge to do it, which is false. The goal is now rerouted to providing the best sources for him to learn to be a success if he wishes to be one.

[Vladdy]

... a story that comes to mind ....
I was helping a friend of mine to coach a group of adults at a local ski area. The group was intermediate skiers who were trying to get a taste of racing. We were standing at the bottom of a simple course, watching students negotiate it and then talking to them about things they can work on.
At the end came this guy, who was really struggling and there were so many things wrong about his skiing that it was hard to decide where to begin correcting them. So I turned to my friend, who is a great racer and an accompished coach and asked him: "What do I say to this guy?" He smiled and said: "First, compliment him on his skis, then suggest to pick up golfing"
:D :D :D

[MysteryMan]

Originally posted by Vladdy
... a story that comes to mind ....
I was helping a friend of mine to coach a group of adults at a local ski area. The group was intermediate skiers who were trying to get a taste of racing. We were standing at the bottom of a simple course, watching students negotiate it and then talking to them about things they can work on.
At the end came this guy, who was really struggling and there were so many things wrong about his skiing that it was hard to decide where to begin correcting them. So I turned to my friend, who is a great racer and an accompished coach and asked him: "What do I say to this guy?" He smiled and said: "First, compliment him on his skis, then suggest to pick up golfing"
:D :D :D

Haha!

And to think, it's not like the guy was trying to compete in the Olympics, he was just learning for his own benefit :)

[Vladdy]

You missed the point: he was NOT benefiting from his learning.
If you try to learn/do something you have no talent/skill set/natural inclination for - you are just wasting time.... pretty much like me taking piano lessons :D :D :D

[newmand2]

Jakenoble, correct me if Im wrong but i seem to remember the last time you submitted your site it looked exactly the same. If you are a web deisgner and developer, then you can't charge people alot of money for a design thats going to be the same as everyone else's because you have one idea in your brain. I used to have just one idea, but I researched other sites, personal, corporate everything just to check out the design.

If you like how something is set out, think about how you may incorporate it into your page.

I think that the horrible cyan colour could be toned down. You obviously like reds and blues, so why not just make a simple logo using lines, and perhaps box each news item with a red border, and a red heading background.

Im not saying you have to use that, but I just thought of that by seeing the Ads for google thing on another site. It wasnt the same, infact quite different but you get me. Just see what you like, because its alot easier to code something you really have in your mind as good

[jakenoble]

Well WOW. A lot can be said over night, while the USA is up and about and us Brits are sleeping.

MysteryMAN - I am improving, if you had seen my code before you would have thought this guy has no chance. No my code is alot better, its not perfect but its alot better. To say that i cannot learn and get better is saying I am not human, humans learn right. It is insulting, to say the same thing over and over again with no actual constructive input. Now i just need to work on colours and design, we will see if i improve.

Nightfire - Thanks a bundle for your help. Your right about the list/table thing for my news items. Thanks for your Post about the other browser, that is constuctive! I will post a new look new layout when its ready.

A web designer can get others to review there sites, thats probably one of the best things a designer could do, even if they are awesome at it.

The sites i have done were for friends and family and so i did not get paid much, seen i was learning at the same time. They were just helping me out, and I keep updating their sites too, as i learn. Which they do not mind because in the end they will have a decent web site with very little investment, but it took a while to become decent.

Thanks All.

[missing-score]

Originally posted by Vladdy
pretty much like me taking piano lessons :D :D :D

Ouch man that hurt... lol :o


Just remembered im self taught, never mind lol.

[MysteryMan]

Jake - You seem to have completely paid no attention to the assistance I did give you. Also, I never said you can't learn. You're mistaking my posts for someone elses.

You mentioned about "your code" being improved.

You should focus on your ability to make aesthetically pleasing websites, NOT focusing on your code. Your client does not care in the least what your code looks like. Your client cares whether or not the site looks good.

You should use a program like dreamweaver or frontpage and focus on making sites that look good - don't focus on your code being beautiful, that is secondary because your clients interest should be your primary concern.........

I think I offered more assistance to you than anyone in this column, however you seem to have either missed it, or thought I was just joking. I was dead serious, so check out my suggestions.

[jakenoble]

Code is so important, This is a coding forum.

I did use dreamweaver, now i do not. The code it produces it poor and too big.

Originally posted by MysteryMan
I said - there isn't anything I can say other than to be honest. Which includes saying that based upon your own site, as well as your portfolio sites, I'm not really sure who COULDN'T be a web designer.

I don't see any level of structural understanding or artistic talent. What is it people are paying for?

Even some dirt cheap services produce amazing results. I cannot find a positive value to work from, sorry.

How does that help me?

Anyway we will quit the flaming.

[ionsurge]

Your site doesn't display correctly in Opera.

[MysteryMan]

I give up

:(

0.o

[jakenoble]

HEY, hang on a min.

Do i do my layout or my code?

One person says code the other says the design?

[mindlessLemming]

Both. Layout first. Code second.
BOTH ARE OF TOP PRIORITY.

My 2cents

[MysteryMan]

Originally posted by mindlessLemming
Both. Layout first. Code second.
BOTH ARE OF TOP PRIORITY.

My 2cents

Yes!

Let's think about this from two perspectives. Firstly just because you are making a site, which is a VISUAL object....

Your layout needs to be what you want it to be. Idiots who come to any site don't care wtf the code looks like -they care if the site looks decent, and they can tell wtf they're lookin at....

Your code is only important so:

1. immediately it works for all users
2. over long term you learn efficiency


Now from the second perspective - since you're making other peoples sites....

First it needs to look right - like I said a client doesn't care what (or even know how to know what) your code looks like. However they'll not be happy if it doesn't look right to everyone they need it to..

you need to make your site LOOK like it should first
Then you need to make it MOST efficient without compromising any design....

[jakenoble]

That Mystery Man helps me.

I thank you for the post. I see where your coming from with the image first, then the code coming second.

[jakenoble]

Right i have started on two new designs at

HERE (http://www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/logotester2.htm)

and

HERE (http://www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/logotester.htm)

Thoughts?

[Nightfire]

The first one is best, needs a few tweeks to get it to look better

For <div class="box_grey"> don't specify a width, your links are going over it.

Got a few errors in your code too

<li><a href="http://jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/portfolio.php"><p>Portfolio</p></b></a></li>

Change it to

<li><a href="http://jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/portfolio.php">Portfolio</a></li>

You don't need to use paragraph tags in a list for links, and shouldn't really use the <b> tags either

The <center> tags shouldn't be used and should be replaced by using css

You're closing some tags off that haven't been opened, but you are getting there :thumbsup: It's about 500 times better than the first layout you showed to us

Here's a link to show all your errors

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/logotester2.htm

The validator helps you out alot :)

[newmand2]

On the first one - The images such as prtfolio and your logo are the wrong colour to the background. ie not the same, but i like that logo ;

Also, on the second one you have the word 'portfolio' appear on the left when you mouseover the link. It doesnt happen for the others

using Firefox

[MysteryMan]

Originally posted by jakenoble
Right i have started on two new designs at

HERE (http://www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/logotester2.htm)

and

HERE (http://www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/logotester.htm)

Thoughts?


Jake.

I wnt to give you a helpful example.

Recently - for ao website i mentioned in another column - i needed to work on a design.

Today, one week later, I finished the design. 100% on paper.

It took me over 200 pieces of printer paper to come to the decision.

I started with every conceivable BANNER, MENU, SUBMENU, and BODY orientation options possible.

I narrowed it down to use two MENUS and no SIDEBARS.

then I new I didn't want center based banners.

Then I orientated the two MENUS.

Then adjusted them to the banner.

Then I had it narrowed down to 12 designs. Then 6, then 4, then 2 then one.

It took a few hundred pieces of paper. I've done nothing on the computer yet.

This is what you ought to do - You shold have memorized every possible combination of your classic 4 website parts

1. banner / title
2. body
3. vertical sidebar
4. horizontal menu


Your design should be awesome before you do it on the computer.

---------------

What I suggest if you wish to learn web design well enough to make money is go to as many websites as possible - many from the signatures of the people here.....

go to the main pages and save them to your computer. go into your frontpage or else, and reduce them down to their basic structure..

Then resave them as skeletons. Notice similiarities, notice patterns. Learn what IS aesthetically pleasing and what isn't.

Your number one problem in ALL the websites you have posted here is you seem to not have much of any sense of aesthetics.

I said earlier you need to focus on design, and THEN coding that design.

I should break down the two basics of design

1. strucutural orientation
2. color theme

You should focus on the first first!

Study the designs of others - and learn the fundamentals of design shapes. This seems to be your number one problem, and the most important thing to have.

focus on drawing, and focus on drawing good designs - copies of others - on paper.

DOn't do ANYTHING on the computer....

I suggest, if possible, instead of posting links to pages you've made, try posting scanned images of pencil drawn designs fitting one piece of pritner paper.

Try those and have people critique them that way. Just do basics, no colors, just pencil.

[redhead]

Hi there,

I prefer the first example you just posted. It is a huge improvment over the design that you started off the thread with - well done :thumbsup:

Okay, I guess because there is no colour then its hard to mess colour up, although maybe the greys (Should I say grey or gray?... I'm English and the American spellings begin to confuse me...) might be a little too dark... maybe throw a white in there or an even more pale gray as a background and see how that looks. I think that a splash of colour might look good somewhere, perhaps on links, titles, or in the logo or something.

The page does have some horizontal scroll to it which isnt usually a good thing. (I'm on 1280*1024 and using Mozilla Firefox 0.8). This could be a padding/margin problem or the width is too big or something like that... I havent dived into the code deep enough to tell.

Speaking of code, the <center> tag isnt meant to be used anymore...

The logo looks better. I guess that you'll change the blue backgrounds on the images when you know which design you're gonna keep... As previously said, the menu box could do with losing the fixed width so that the wider links don't go over the edge? That might work better.

Otherwise, I think that it is a good start and a huge improvment on your previous work - keep persevering and you will start coming up with better designs (mate... you should see my first design:o;))

:thumbsup:

just fixed some of my many typo's

[jakenoble]

Latest is at HERE (http://www.jakenoblewebs.co.uk/pages/logotester3.htm)

[mindlessLemming]

1) horizontal scrollbars in Moz1.6 @ 1024x768.
2) custom bullets for menu are cropped off at the bottom.
3) There's a big hole in your header. It's not acting as "white space", it's a hole.

[Nightfire]

I'm guessing no one's gonna see content at 800 x 600 res. I get a scrollbar both horiziontally and vertically at 1280 x 1024. Center align the page and to me the colours aren't working together, they're actually looking worse than before :( That light green and grey look like something I shouldn't say in public.

[Paul Jr]

Scrollbars, Moz FB 1024*768.

There's too much empty space at the top and the right. You're mixing colors too much. Pick like... 3 - 5 colors and stick with them -- unless they don't go together, like that gold color. It doesn't work with the rest of the page. And the background color of your image links doesn't match the background of the rest of the page.

[jakenoble]

MysteryMAN

Can i see one of your sites?

JAKE