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View Full Version : Coloring scrollbars, views and opinions.



Mhtml
01-08-2004, 05:41 PM
Alright following that last thread on coloring scrollbars this thread is supposed to be a sort of faq with pros and cons of using CSS to change them in IE.

Ground rules:

This will be heavily moderated and posts which I or other people feel to be pretty irrelevant will be removed or edited.

All posts should have good spelling and grammar and clearly outline what you are trying to say so that people who read this, an no doubt many will can see why and why not they should or shouldn't use this technique based on pros and cons ...

me'
01-08-2004, 06:40 PM
All right, I'll start off the posting. I've been known to get quite angry in these types of threads in the past, so I'll try and keep it down :o

The UI Argument
Open a new window, tab or whatever, with no page displayed. You might see a load of white (or whatever your custom background colour is), but the rest of what you see is your browser. It's yours. You can style it and colour it and fool around with it as much as the vendor lets you.

Note the wording: you can. Not some random stranger who's page I happen to be reading. They shouldn't have access to your browser, because it's yours, right? You'd get angry if people started deleting your bookmarks, yeah? Then why is it, in some people's opinion, acceptable to colour the scrollbars? I count that as messing with my User Interface.

Pages are meant to hold data. They can look pretty with CSS or XSLT-FO if you're into that, but inevitably all they should do is display (or collect, whatever) data. My browser is the interface that I use to get to this data. I've set it up exactly as I want. Don't change it! Please!

Standards and Internet Explorer
If you're new to this 'standards' thing, a brief introduction: The W3C (www.w3.org) (World Wide Web Consortium) is a load of great guys who come up with 'standards' for the web. They think a lot about this, and the end result is a standardised set of rulings that (if people follow), life would be good. :)

Internet Explorer supports much less standards than other (www.mozilla.org/products/firebird) browsers (www.opera.com). (It's also less secure, has less features etc. but I won't go into that). It supports propreitory CSS, which Microsoft deem acceptable, but no-one else does.

scrollbar-* are some of these properties. No other browsers at all support these properties. So why should you?

Oh, and the CSS won't get past the validator if you include scrollbar-*, another great reason not to do it.

I'll let other people argue about the accessibility, a page can often be just as accessible if the correct colours are chosen (but very rarely more accesible).

Wow, the end of a scrollbar post, and I didn't flame once! :eek:

Skyzyx
01-08-2004, 06:59 PM
It's all boils down to a matter of definitions: Is the scrollbar part of the webpage, or is it part of the web browser's user interface?

In your OS, windows have scrollbars, right? In MS Word, you've got scrollbars, right? Scrollbars are a native part of the UI. In a webpage, you don't have to program the scrollbars. You don't tell the up button to move up, or the down button to move down. The engineers who have developed the application you're using are the ones who have done the programming for that particular user interface widget. There's a certain look and feel that the engineers have implemented into their application that makes it more usable or accessible.

However, if it's actually just a part of the webpage, then sure. Color it however you'd like. But I think we all know that it's not part of the webpage.

There is a line between what is part of the webpage, and what is part of the UI. This is a line that Microsoft has blurred. "Oh cool, a new feature!" But is it a good feature? Is the web designer going to be responsible with this feature?

Generally, I find that those who are responsible enough to use this feature in the first place, don't because they know better than to mess with the user's UI.

jkd
01-08-2004, 08:44 PM
Usability pros? None. There are no usability benefits associated with changing the color of the scrollbars.

Usability cons? Messing with the OS-level UI is bad juju.

Now, if you remove the usability qualifier, then the debate can be taken further. But in the narrow topic of usability, that's all that can really be said.

Mhtml
01-08-2004, 08:47 PM
I thought about that when I posted it ...


...

Very well then, usability discarded ... continue :)

mindlessLemming
01-09-2004, 03:41 AM
Well seeing as you bought it up...:o
I feel there is still a very small place for coloured scrollbars on the far fringes of Mum and Pop commercial sites. If the page contains a column-like <div> on the left of the screen and fails to touch any of the viewport’s boundaries, then I believe that tasteful & considerate re-styling of that scrollbar is allowable.

That said, I would never again consider changing scrollbar attributes. Primarily because according to the W3C, the scrollbar does not have any attributes in CSS.
The above example would only come into play with a pain in the @$$ client were it would be more of a case of “Let the Baby have his candy”

Jerome
01-10-2004, 08:07 PM
if(Your complete audience==expects a colored scrollbar)
color them
else if(One person from Your audience!=expects a colored scrollbar)
leave them like they are

Jerome

Donkey
01-11-2004, 06:41 PM
I thought colored scroll bars looked good.

Then I validated some of my pages and noticed that the colored scrolls were gone. So I did a search on this forum and found this thread which has just about convinced me to forget the colored scrollbars.

Then I noticed the scroll bars are colored on this forum?

So is it all down to personal taste or what?:)

liorean
01-11-2004, 06:54 PM
No, it's all down to whether you put standards, accessibility, usability and good coding practice before eye candy and proprietary behavior and functionality.

ArcticFox
01-14-2004, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by Mhtml

This will be heavily moderated and posts which I or other people feel to be pretty irrelevant will be removed or edited.

All posts should have good spelling and grammar and clearly outline what you are trying to say so that people who read this, an no doubt many will can see why and why not they should or shouldn't use this technique based on pros and cons ...

What kind of fish is this? AntiColouredScrollBar boot camp?

Man! You sure do like your threads whipped....

I say go with coloured scrollers. As most people here think that your site is on their browser so it makes it theirs, I see MY site as MY art to be displayed MY way. I'm not writing a book; everything in black and white, T's crossed Is dotted... I am creating it. Painting a picture, if you will.

Now, with that said, there are those 13 year old script kiddies who insist on screwing with our eyes and senses, but they'll eventually learn and grow up like the rest of the world, but that's okay. If one does not like coloured bars, fullscreen/chromeless, frames, outdated tags, etc... then stop visiting the kiddie haxor sites! :D

-A.F.
(taking a deep breath and clicking the [back] button is all it takes.)

**and another thing, my site doesn't 'validate' from its first line of code. In fact the validator has fits just trying to print out all its imaginary mistakes it finds. Does it matter at all? Nope. Why? Because my site still shows up the way I want it to in all browsers I have access to. **

end of rant

mindlessLemming
01-14-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by ArcticFox

**and another thing, my site doesn't 'validate' from its first line of code. In fact the validator has fits just trying to print out all its imaginary mistakes it finds. Does it matter at all? Nope. Why? Because my site still shows up the way I want it to in all browsers I have access to. **

end of rant

LOL! Welcome to the forums, :D
You're gonna be popular round here :rolleyes:

liorean
01-14-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by ArcticFox
What kind of fish is this? AntiColouredScrollBar boot camp?Not at all. We are just taking the future of the web into consideration, as well as our users, in difference to just taking our selves into consideration. We're concerned with The Right Way To Do It™
I say go with coloured scrollers. As most people here think that your site is on their browser so it makes it theirs, I see MY site as MY art to be displayed MY way. I'm not writing a book; everything in black and white, T's crossed Is dotted... I am creating it. Painting a picture, if you will.We do not see the page as ours because it displays in our browser. The document is your do do whatever you want with. However, the scrollbars are not part of the document, they are part of the user interface, and the user interface is not yours to mess with, It belongs to the user, and the user alone.
Now, with that said, there are those 13 year old script kiddies who insist on screwing with our eyes and senses, but they'll eventually learn and grow up like the rest of the world, but that's okay. If one does not like coloured bars, fullscreen/chromeless, frames, outdated tags, etc... then stop visiting the kiddie haxor sites! :DThe question really is if the user should change because of the site, or if the site should change becaquse of the users. I say the user is the single most important thing to consider when developing for the web, so that is the stance you should take when developing a site.

**and another thing, my site doesn't 'validate' from its first line of code. In fact the validator has fits just trying to print out all its imaginary mistakes it finds. Does it matter at all? Nope. Why? Because my site still shows up the way I want it to in all browsers I have access to. **It matters, especially when you come asking for help. First of all, a validating site gives us an important signal - that you are trying as much as you can, yourself. It's a signal of cluefulness. From our point of view, and that of the users, the important thing is, for each and every user, that the site behaves as the user expects it to do. This means we expect a site to not destroy the back button. We expect the site to not change our user interface, including scrollbars. We expect the site to not break if we turn off JavaScript, or images, or stylesheets, or flash, or java. Each and every user is as important - the majority using ie6w with everything enabled are not worth any more than the single user of NCSA Mosaic. We may limit ourselves in what user base we target, but the rule is that all users within the user base should be given full priority, and the users outside that base should still be able to use the site, if not view it as intended. Part of this is related to the separation of content from presentation, and the semantic web. It's part of the idea we have about the purpose of the internet and the web.

As for less religiosly/ideologically held reasons, see <http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/05/05/why_we_wont_help_you>, <http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/30381>, <http://www.pixy.cz/dogma/dogmaw41/en/>, <http://www.wdvl.com/Authoring/HTML/Validation/Why.html>, <http://valet.webthing.com/page/why.html>

Donkey
01-14-2004, 02:35 PM
Okay I admit I am a mere beginer and I bow to the collective knowledge of all you experts out there, but can I ask a couple of basic questions without causing offence.

1) Who decides the scroll bars are part of the browser? To me there is a better argument for saying that they are part of the site. After all they only appear when the content on the page is bigger than the browser window, so they are derived from the page not the browser.

2) Just how does changing the colour of the scroll bars affect the usability of the site. If you are thinking of colour-blind or partially sighted people then surely coloured scroll bars must be better for them than grey?

ArcticFox
01-14-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Donkey

1) Who decides the scroll bars are part of the browser? To me there is a better argument for saying that they are part of the site. After all they only appear when the content on the page is bigger than the browser window, so they are derived from the page not the browser.

You are correct.


Originally posted by Donkey

2) Just how does changing the colour of the scroll bars affect the usability of the site. If you are thinking of colour-blind or partially sighted people then surely coloured scroll bars must be better for them than grey?
Changing the colours doesn't effect the usability at all. And as for blind or partially sighted persons - what's the difference in them visiting my coloured scrollbar site and visiting an art gallery? Do painters take into consideration that there are those of us who can't see at all? :rolleyes:



Originally posted by mindlessLemming
LOL! Welcome to the forums,
You're gonna be popular round here
Thanks, but I've been here for years. I left because of the crying that went on about browser compatability... I see not much has changed, though. :D



Originally posted by liorean
We are just taking the future of the web into consideration, as well as our users, in difference to just taking our selves into consideration. We're concerned with The Right Way To Do It

Oh my... what is this 'future' you speak of? Boring. Bland. Stale. Colourless. Dictionary-style of web design? COME ON! Who are you people and where do you come from?! Is this like a little gang you're all into; like a cult of validating web writers? We all understand that content is king, but why should everyone have to build the same front-page styled sites? I, as a web surfer, am very tired of looking at the same thing over and over. It would be nice to have more sites whos webmasters' minds have been opened to the views of artistic expression, and not just journalism...

Marilyn Manson has a song out that I think would fit this conversation nicely... :D

liorean
01-14-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by ArcticFox
Changing the colours doesn't effect the usability at all. And as for blind or partially sighted persons - what's the difference in them visiting my coloured scrollbar site and visiting an art gallery? Do painters take into consideration that there are those of us who can't see at all? :rolleyes:Well, I say it does. For the first, the user may set the scrollbars on an operative system wide colour scheme, so that all scrollbars look the same. This means that a scrollbar wich does not look like the scrollbar usually do might be not recognised by the user. For the second, they are provided by the window or frame of any kind of application, not only browsers, to allow scrolling of the window contents, which in the browser is the document, when needed. For the third, they are user interaction areas, which means that you shouldn't change them if you can avoid it.

Oh my... what is this 'future' you speak of? Boring. Bland. Stale. Colourless. Dictionary-style of web design? COME ON! Who are you people and where do you come from?! Is this like a little gang you're all into; like a cult of validating web writers? We all understand that content is king, but why should everyone have to build the same front-page styled sites? I, as a web surfer, am very tired of looking at the same thing over and over. It would be nice to have more sites whos webmasters' minds have been opened to the views of artistic expression, and not just journalism...No, not boring at all. Not bland or stale, and certainly not colourless. But, it is a future with a set of rules, made for the user's benefit. Content that can be described in a media independent way, as well as a media dependent way, should be described thus. Things that can be done in a future compatible, standards compliant way instead of a proprietary way, should be done thus. Colours, patterns and shapes, as well as sound, motion and interaction, that are not content, should be used in such a way that a minimalist user agent, e.g a specific medium parser, can get at the content in a way that makes it well structured and ordered without being disturbed by features only present in other media, which those that have user agents that support those other media will still be able to present to the user. A separation of content from presentation based on structure and semantics that does not hamper any single media, but provides a way for other media to get at the essence of the document, the content. In some cases the presentation or the meta data happens to be the actual content, and such cases may never be entirely able to use this philosophy, but the majority of the sites on the web are not such. A web page is a document, the content of which should be presentable in any medium. The presentation may differ wildly between media, but the content is the same. So, our intention is not to make you unable to do something you already can, with the exception of that being a destruction of the usability in any medium. We already live in the future of our past, and we must make sure that our pages will be presentable in the future of the present, because that is when they will be used. And following that, we should ensure future compatibility. We should write to the standards because that is what we know will last.

ReadMe.txt
01-14-2004, 04:47 PM
Yes it is true that the Main scroll bar ovev there -> is part of the UI, but then you have to stop and ask - are the scrollbars on textarea part of the UI or the document, what about overflowed divs or iframes?

Now to me these are all part of the document, they lie within the <html> element and are not reall part of the UI, now i'm not saying we should be styling them - but i'm not so sure the UI arguement hold up for these.

Caffeine
01-14-2004, 05:10 PM
If the scrollbars are part of someones page, I would like someone to please construct a page with 10 scrollbars, and I would like them to position themselves say 50 pixles from the left.

I would also like that someone to make a <textarea> with the scrollbars on their opposite side, meaning the horizontal scrollbars should be placed at the top instead of the textarea, and the vertical one to the left.
I expect you to have control over your page and it's design, just like you have control over the other elements on your page.

Thank you.

[edit]: I forgot to say that I share mindlessLemming's view on the scrollbars. When done properly, scrollbar-coloring can make pages look more 'complete' so to speak. However, I still think they are part of the browser.

me'
01-14-2004, 08:51 PM
Scrollbars are part of the browser. Their behaviour is built into the browser. A browser should leave space for a scrollbar even when one is not required (very rarely).
A page is mere data. Data needs something to display it. The browser inteperts this data and displays it. The scrollbar is a method for navigating this data. It's still part of the browser.
Oh my... what is this 'future' you speak of? Boring. Bland. Stale. Colourless. Dictionary-style of web design? COME ON! Who are you people and where do you come from?! Is this like a little gang you're all into; like a cult of validating web writers? We all understand that content is king, but why should everyone have to build the same front-page styled sites? I, as a web surfer, am very tired of looking at the same thing over and over. It would be nice to have more sites whos webmasters' minds have been opened to the views of artistic expression, and not just journalism...Web pages, whichever way you look at it, were originally designed for carrying data, scientific papers and the like. Obviously that isn't the same now, but if you believe standars = boring, then I reccomend you look at some link (http://www.9rules.com/cssvault/) lists (www.csszengarden.com) (2 (www.dailystandards.com), 3 (www.andybudd.com/blog)...) because that's a completely unfair and inaccurate generalisation.

Donkey
01-15-2004, 01:53 PM
I understand the arguments but it seems to me that the 'ownership' of the scroll bars is a matter of opinion. I still tend to think that if it is controllable from the page it should be thought of as part of the page.

However, does it really matter if it's part of the browser or part of the page?

And, I repeat my previous question why does this forum have coloured scroll bars if it's such a bad thing?

jkd
01-15-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Donkey
And, I repeat my previous question why does this forum have coloured scroll bars if it's such a bad thing?

We don't control the layout of the forum does. George Chiang does, and he is not of the same opinion.

Skyzyx
02-01-2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by ArcticFox
Oh my... what is this 'future' you speak of? Boring. Bland. Stale. Colourless. Dictionary-style of web design? COME ON! Who are you people and where do you come from?! Is this like a little gang you're all into; like a cult of validating web writers? We all understand that content is king, but why should everyone have to build the same front-page styled sites? I, as a web surfer, am very tired of looking at the same thing over and over. It would be nice to have more sites whos webmasters' minds have been opened to the views of artistic expression, and not just journalism...

LOL. Is this MotherNatrsSon reincarnated? At one point, he didn't understand the point of doing things the right way either. Ha!

Secondly, your aforementioned assumption is entirely false. Check out the CSS Zen Garden (http://www.csszengarden.com). All standards. All compliant. All the time. :cool:

liorean
02-01-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Skyzyx
LOL. Is this MotherNatrsSon reincarnated? At one point, he didn't understand the point of doing things the right way either. Ha!Well, yeah, but ArcticFox is an old timer. I'm pretty sure he's been with us under another name since longe before MNS came here.

ArcticFox
02-01-2004, 10:23 PM
Since "The Webmaster's Pit".

Basscyst
02-01-2004, 10:40 PM
I just have to say - Standards aside - The color of the scroll bar is completly irrelevent. Um. . .where are these, "Hey my scroll bar is red? Is that my scroll bar? What do I do with it now that it's red?" people. Maybe I'm giving folks in general a little more credit than they are due, but I'm thinking the majority of the world isn't going to flip out because their scrollbar changed colors.

Please . . .share with me about the horrible tragedies that have occured due to the coloring of your scrollbars? Were you left out of the loop because you couldn't get to the information at the bottom of the page? I mean really what's the deal.

Also note that most mice have a scroller in the middle nowadays - I personally rarely ever touch the actual scroll bar.

Deep breaths everyone. It's going to be OK.

Basscyst

arian
02-02-2004, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Basscyst
I just have to say - Standards aside - The color of the scroll bar is completly irrelevent. Um. . .where are these, "Hey my scroll bar is red? Is that my scroll bar? What do I do with it now that it's red?" people. Maybe I'm giving folks in general a little more credit than they are due, but I'm thinking the majority of the world isn't going to flip out because their scrollbar changed colors.

Please . . .share with me about the horrible tragedies that have occured due to the coloring of your scrollbars? Were you left out of the loop because you couldn't get to the information at the bottom of the page? I mean really what's the deal.

Also note that most mice have a scroller in the middle nowadays - I personally rarely ever touch the actual scroll bar.

Deep breaths everyone. It's going to be OK.

Basscyst
Just what I was thinking...

mindlessLemming
02-02-2004, 02:23 AM
My father is colour blind. He is also a network technican. He cannot see white scroll bars with light grey arrows etc.

P.S. You're beating a dead mule. Leave it in peace ;)

ArcticFox
02-02-2004, 06:15 AM
I've perfect 20/20 vision.

I cannot see a white scrollbar with white arrows on a white background next to a white page.

Yes, there is a site I've been to like that, but should it mean that it's wrong for everyone else to have their scrollbars coloured? No. I visit a lot of sites (mostly in Asia) in which their scrollbars add a real touch of class to an otherwise boaring browser-trapped look. The same goes for Chromeless sites (again, mostly in Asia). If your father gets to one of these sites, either he can read Korean and can read what's goin on, or I'm sure he knows where the back button is on his browser...

I'll continue to kick this dead mule until people here realize that the internet is not to be designed like a dictionary, black and white.

*mindlessLemming, I know you're one of us because I see a coloured scrollbar on your site! ;)

SCROLLBAR-FACE-COLOR: #fff;
SCROLLBAR-HIGHLIGHT-COLOR:#8193AB;
SCROLLBAR-SHADOW-COLOR: #8193AB;
SCROLLBAR-3DLIGHT-COLOR: #8193AB;
SCROLLBAR-ARROW-COLOR:#424E5D;
SCROLLBAR-TRACK-COLOR: #fff;
SCROLLBAR-DARKSHADOW-COLOR:#424E5D;

mindlessLemming
02-02-2004, 07:04 AM
I was young and illinformed....
Check it again.

ArcticFox
02-02-2004, 07:05 AM
Still there!
(not quick enough on the editing, huh?) :D

*Okay, that's so wrong - removing it just so you can be on their side. Still looks good on WinXP's scrollbars...

(you're still one of us in my book)

mindlessLemming
02-02-2004, 07:20 AM
I'm not on any side man.
I only started web design 6 months ago, and was lucky enough to discover this forum immedietly. Because of this, I've only ever made 2 tables/tag-soup sites. And I won't be making any more (unless Im paid well to do so).
Yes, I did have coloured scrollbars, but you will notice that NONE of my scrollbars touch the viewport boundaries, even in 800x600. At the time I made this site (3 months ago), accessibility was not part of my web vocab. Now I love the idea of making sites that can be viewed, understood and enjoyed by as many people as possible. (Prob. time for an update then...eh?)

The them of whom you speak are people whom I greatly respect and appreciate the help of. They have always given advice which helps me know why certain practices are detremental. They spend many hours researching the latest techniques and translating them into language which we can all understand. I aspire to one day be one of them

/end rant.

Andrew
I'm glad you liked my site though.... And if an ammature like myself can make xhtml/CSS sites...imagine what you could do.

ArcticFox
02-02-2004, 07:22 AM
*looks down, shakes head*

You've been brainwashed, too... :(


:D

missing-score
03-03-2004, 10:19 PM
I dont know if any of you have tried this but I tried it after reading this thread and the results are quite interesting.

I made a page and added a border to the body tag:

<body style="border: 50px solid red">

and tested it in IE and Moz.

Mozilla gave me a normal page with my border in the middle and the word "hello" which I had written.

IE put the border round the very edge and pushed the scrollbar in so it almost looked like a scrolling div in the centre of the page.

So it almost seems more like IE treats the scroll bar as part of the document.

Anyway, if you really wanted a coloured scrollbar and wanted it to validate, could you not use the <!--> <!--> hack in IE to include it, as it only works in IE anyways so the validator *should* pass it by.


Having said that, I prefer to keep my scrollbar as it is :)

me'
03-04-2004, 06:59 PM
I just have to say - Standards aside - The color of the scroll bar is completly irrelevent. Um. . .where are these, "Hey my scroll bar is red? Is that my scroll bar? What do I do with it now that it's red?" people. Maybe I'm giving folks in general a little more credit than they are due, but I'm thinking the majority of the world isn't going to flip out because their scrollbar changed colors.A friend of mine used to teach beginners computer classes. Very beginner. One instruction was 'Use the mouse to point to the middle of the screen'. They had priorly been instructed that the mouse was the small white thing to the right of the thing with all the buttons, so promptly one of them picked it up and literally jabbed it at the monitor.

Moral: nothing, or as close to nothing as feasibly possible, is to be taken for granted when it comes to usability. You don't know who might be browsing your site. And they won't be complaining the scrollbar has changed colour because they won't realise what a scrollbar is and may not realise it is even the same widget. Ignorance may be bliss but it's our job to present a better reality.

coder_seth
03-04-2004, 09:49 PM
this is all that needed to be said on this topic:

who cares?

:eek:

seriously though. this is definitely one area where y'all are thinking way too hard and trying to push the standards envelope too far.

it's just a simple preference. sometimes sites with modified scrollbar colors look great. the scrollbars compliment the site nicely. what's more, if you've got frames, or iframes, or scrolling <div>s or something, the aesthetics of the scrollbar become more of an issue.

but it doesn't matter either way. for anything. usability, standards.. does.. not.. matter, people! the only standards issue that applies is HOW you're changing the scrollbar colors, and since CSS is the only way (that i know of) you're in the standards clear!

lavalamp
03-05-2004, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by ArcticFox
Oh my... what is this 'future' you speak of? Boring. Bland. Stale. Colourless. Dictionary-style of web design?Is this (http://www.ryanbrill.com) bland? That's just web-dev racism if you ask me.


Originally posted by mindlessLemming
Now I love the idea of making sites that can be viewed, understood and enjoyed by as many people as possible.Wow, I found someone as sad as I am!!! :D

As far as I am concerned, the W3C are the web-dev god's and whatever they say goes. If I make a page that doesn't pass the validator, I'll make it pass. I don't use CSS hacks, and I try my damndest to get my pages to transform gracefully. I like to use the latest tachnologies but I am somewhat restricted with the use of CSS3 by IE at the moment.

I'm just here to say that I consider styling the scrollbars wrong since the W3C do not condone it.

mindlessLemming
03-05-2004, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by lavalamp
Originally posted by mindlessLemming
Oh my... what is this 'future' you speak of? Boring. Bland. Stale. Colourless. Dictionary-style of web design?[/B]

EXCUSE ME!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I most certainly did NOT post that comment!
That was the work of Arctic Fox........
//apology will be accepted in any digital format :D

coder_seth
03-05-2004, 07:35 AM
"I'm just here to say that I consider styling the scrollbars wrong since the W3C do not condone it."

:rolleyes:

Garadon
03-05-2004, 08:56 AM
In my opinion the scrollers are part of the page, eventhough they are ugly no matter what color they got :P.

BTW:My opinion is that anything that is in a box belongs to thah box(bloody Molich). and the scrollbars in both firefox and ie is in the documents box, if they are not part of the box those that made the browsers aperantly put the box border on the wrong side of the scroller.

Oh and cause I got way to much time on my hand I ran mindlesslemming through the w3c validator and they aperantly don't agree that its valid anymore :P.

Oh and I ain't completly sure its good practise to change peoples signatures even if it is only in coloring. that would be like drinking a yellow cola :P

lavalamp
03-05-2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by mindlessLemming
I most certainly did NOT post that comment!
That was the work of Arctic Fox........Oh crap sorry, I meant to put your name on the other quote. :(

Edited, should be right now.

mindlessLemming
03-06-2004, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Garadon

Oh and cause I got way to much time on my hand I ran mindlesslemming through the w3c validator and they aperantly don't agree that its valid anymore :P.


hehehe.... yeah, I've been very slack.... that site's coming down soon anyway... :o

Badman3k
04-21-2004, 05:14 PM
I stumbled across this post while trying to find the code to change the colour of the scrollbars.

With regards to the scrollbars being part of the UI or document, would the div layer scrollbars be classed as UI or document, as it is the designer who sets them to be visible etc.

Secondly:


A friend of mine used to teach beginners computer classes. Very beginner. One instruction was 'Use the mouse to point to the middle of the screen'. They had priorly been instructed that the mouse was the small white thing to the right of the thing with all the buttons, so promptly one of them picked it up and literally jabbed it at the monitor.

Moral: nothing, or as close to nothing as feasibly possible, is to be taken for granted when it comes to usability. You don't know who might be browsing your site. And they won't be complaining the scrollbar has changed colour because they won't realise what a scrollbar is and may not realise it is even the same widget. Ignorance may be bliss but it's our job to present a better reality.
Would you therefore disagree with changing the colour and appearance of buttons, textareas? Surely this would be just as bad as changing the colour of the scroll bar? And does the W3C agree with changing the buttons, textareas, etc......yes! So why is it so different to changing the colour of the scroll bar? I'm sure a lot of us have messed around with custom buttons and inputs.

liorean
04-21-2004, 06:00 PM
Actually, the W3C doesn't agree with it. Until CSS3, the styling for form controls were undefined. With the CSS3 UI module (stagnated) and the CSS3 Basic UI (Microsoft driven), they added support for form controls (Microsoft was the major pusher for these modules), but there is still one thing you have to think of: form controls can be considered replaced elements, and their rendering is up to the the user agent. With the exception of the following code in the proposed defaulf HTML stylesheet, previous CSS versions have not defined form control appearance.
button, textarea,
input, object,
select { display:inline-block; }

And the only reason that the UI modules have been allowed to come into existence is the single argument: "It must be made possible, by applying a default CSS stylesheet, to describe the current de facto rendering for all HTML4 elements."

me'
04-22-2004, 08:11 PM
Would you therefore disagree with changing the colour and appearance of buttons, textareas? Surely this would be just as bad as changing the colour of the scroll bar? And does the W3C agree with changing the buttons, textareas, etc......yes! So why is it so different to changing the colour of the scroll bar? I'm sure a lot of us have messed around with custom buttons and inputs.Is there a <scrollbar> element under XHTML? No, but there are elements to create buttons, text boxes etc.

Most XHTML elements (<p>, <div>, etc) contain author-defined data. Form XHTML elements contain user-defined data (but still data). Scrollbars are a way of accessing data. You can see that they don't fall into the same UI-widget category as forms.

eyeronik
11-07-2004, 05:43 PM
I can understand people not wanting to change the main scrollbar, but what about when its in a small box? Its a scroll text box with a scrollbar that is totally the wrong colour and I would programme a scrollbar for it myself but I dont know how. So in that case I cannot see a problem with it.

eyeronik
11-07-2004, 05:52 PM
Also people are talking rubbish with regard to disability issues. I doubt anyone here really cares and I doubt anyone here ever bothers to fully alt tag images to describe what is there for blind people. I doubt some people even know blind people use the internet. The other problem is colour blindness, but unless you are using extreme colours like red, greens, and the like then the average scrollbar colour is fine. The fact is disabled people can use their own CSS style sheets so they can indeed customise the colour of the scrollbar you all seem to hold to dear. So you're all moaning about disability issues when a colour blind person might use custom style sheets to change the colour to what they can see better anyway.

If everyone is so bothered about disabilities try changing your site properly for it instead of using it as an arguement rather than just admitting the only reason you dont like it is because it changes your scrollbar colour, which is fair enough, but its hardly a big issue. Its almost part of the page and you dont mind the page design... If you hate it so much make your own style sheet to overwrite the colours... Then no one would need to moan about it

I'd also like to point out the people making stupid coloured ones are making bad websites yes. But you don't remove the scrollbar code to combat that. Do we try and get dreamweaver banned because people make bad websites? It's their fault for being poor designers. The scrollbar colours can improve websites and as a designer I can tell you the placing of the scrollbar affects the page and you should be allowed to change it. If they hadn't designed scrollbars we would all make our own designs and you would have more to moan about then. One guy actually said "I dont add websites to my favs if it has coloured scrollbars" how pathetic is that, only on the internet can people stoop to such a low stupidity level. Apparently people new to the internet will be "shocked" to find different coloured scrollbars and not know what to do as well! I would think the people who would do that are the very people moaning about it as their intelligence level seems about the same.

Puffin the Erb
11-07-2004, 08:37 PM
The Web is a great place to visit.
I like to use different vehicles to journey there.
When I take a drive I don't expect someone to paint the sides of my car on arrival.
Why do some designers insist on daubing paint on the sides of two of my cars? They leave the others alone.
Just paint your own property please, leave mine be.

Erich
11-07-2004, 08:45 PM
Also people are talking rubbish with regard to disability issues. I doubt anyone here really cares and I doubt anyone here ever bothers to fully alt tag images to describe what is there for blind people. I doubt some people even know blind people use the internet.

I think this assumption allows me to ignore the subsequent judgemets you passed on those that think differently than you, seeing how baseless it is.

Anyway, question. for those that dont view the web on a computer, say for cell phones, pdas, or anything of the sort... can non compliance in the css department adversely affect the way the page is rendered?

llizard
11-08-2004, 12:49 AM
I've just noticed this thread and have skimmed the other posts. Please forgive me if I repeat something already mentioned. When I encounter a page that is completely unreadable because of the colours and/or background images that have been chosen, first I disable images. If that doesn't work, I disable CSS.


question. for those that dont view the web on a computer, say for cell phones, pdas, or anything of the sort... can non compliance in the css department adversely affect the way the page is rendered?

I'm not absolutely sure that I understand your question (but I think I do). I would think that non compliance in the css department could certainly adversely affect the way a page is rendered. All content should be completely understandable with CSS disabled. The CSS is only there to enhance what is there already. So it really should make not one whit of difference whether the scroll bars are coloured or not. (Only those people who use IE would know about it anyway....)

By the way, eyeronik, I have it on authority that there is at least one person here who "bothers to fully alt tag images to describe what is there for blind people". It happens to be one of my petpeeves. The alt tag is not just for blind people but for people who are viewing pages with browsers that do not support images. When I first started surfing the internet, it was in lynx. I could not believe the number of pages I came across that looked like this:




[logo.jpg]

* [1][menu1.gif]
* [2][menu2.gif]
* [3][menu3.gif]
* [4][menu4.gif]

[intro.gif]

[footer.jpg]


Doesn't convey much, does it? If images are integral to the meaning of the page, the alt tags must be there - unless the creator of the page knows categorically that all his visitors are using the very same OS that he is.

The boxes with the numbers in them signify links. I made up a mockup of the kind of page that is sadly not uncommon. I'd love to hear what it looks like viewed on a cellphone, pda....

http://llizard.crosswinds.net/fake/fake1.html

bnovc
11-08-2004, 03:19 AM
I just made another layout a few hours ago, which I began debating with myself over the scrollbar issue. The *only* reason I want to change the color is because the content box has "overflow: auto;", and on a black background, blue scrollbars definetly distract from the look of the site.

I would prefer that my documents validate as xhtml / css, but I know my code does anyways, so I would prefer to cater a nice color scheme to the majority of people instead of having a valide image on my site.

AaronW
11-08-2004, 04:48 AM
I consider the inability to style scrollbars another fine example of standards holding back design. I acknowledge that there are people who may have a hard time seeing my styles, but they can disable styles. Any problems related to colouring issues can be easily solved with a user stylesheet. This alone should level the usability field, should it not?

Scrollbars may not have tags, but I'm a supporter of styling them. I would if I could, but I can't so I won't. Even if I could just style scrollbars generated by overflow: scroll on any children of <body>, I'd be happy. But alas, we're all forced to deal with hideously unpredictable scrollbar styles in our otherwise consitantly-styled presentations. It's a bummer.

lavalamp
11-08-2004, 05:36 PM
Scrollbars are skinned to fit in with the theme of the operating system, not with the theme of your page. By altering what the scroll-bars look like they no longer fit in with the operating system, therefore you're mucking things up that I as a user don't want mucked up.

AaronW
11-08-2004, 05:44 PM
Scrollbars are skinned to fit in with the theme of the operating system, not with the theme of your page. By altering what the scroll-bars look like they no longer fit in with the operating system, therefore you're mucking things up that I as a user don't want mucked up.

So let them disable it. User stylesheets would fix that. Otherwise let them leave. If the user is disabled in some way, then their browser will likely have been configured with its own style sheet to make text bigger, colour links brighter, etc.

The colouring issue is, in my opinion, just as potentially dangerous as letting people colour the foreground and background of a document. You wind up with shallow contrast and BAM. People can't read your text. Screw asthetics, we've got minorities who can't read your coloured text. Ban "color:".

Same deal in my mind (and in the mind of every other scrollbar-colouring supporter). Giving us the freedom to colour our pages will always result in abuse and accidental misuse by some designers, but that doesn't mean those of us with knowledge of colour theory and whatnot should be punished for it.

llizard
11-08-2004, 06:11 PM
Scrollbars are skinned to fit in with the theme of the operating system, not with the theme of your page. By altering what the scroll-bars look like they no longer fit in with the operating system, therefore you're mucking things up that I as a user don't want mucked up.

I can certainly see colouring scrollbars in divs that are placed within a webpage (such as this textarea window that I'm now typing in). Personally, I don't really see the point of colouring the scrollbars on the browser itself. I have set the colours on my browser. Having said that, I really don't care if designers want to match all their scrollbar colours to the rest of their websites' styles. As Aaron said already, if the coloured scrollbars really offend people, they can choose to disable the style altogether. Or they can just leave in a huff.

And of course, lavalamp, you can always choose to dump your IE altogether and then you won't have to be bothered by the fact that someone is trying to "muck things up that you as a user don't want mucked up". (Or have I missed something here? Has Mozilla decided to support the coloured scrollbars?)

AaronW
11-08-2004, 06:59 PM
(Or have I missed something here? Has Mozilla decided to support the coloured scrollbars?)

Well regardless, the thread is sort of debating scrollbar styling being standardized isn't it?

That would however mean that scrollbars would have to appear the same in all browsers (Mac scrollbars have the up/down arrows right on top of each other, wheras Windows' bars have the arrows on either extreme of the bar.) Though perhaps the scrollbars used in the document (overflowing children of <body>) could be standardized and the browsers' bars would match the OS?

Shame the W3C folks don't visit CF to read all this stuff. Heh.

lavalamp
11-08-2004, 07:35 PM
And of course, lavalamp, you can always choose to dump your IE altogether and then you won't have to be bothered by the fact that someone is trying to "muck things up that you as a user don't want mucked up". (Or have I missed something here? Has Mozilla decided to support the coloured scrollbars?)I use Mozilla Firefox but I was pretending to be a "normal" user for the sake of arguement.

Browsers don't usually let you pick and choose which bits of CSS you want to support and which bits you don't. If scroll-bar styles were included in the W3C spec and Mozilla did support them then what makes you think I would be able to disable them?

Although I grant you some clever sole would probably write an extension for the browser and all would be well. :D

liorean
11-08-2004, 07:41 PM
AaronW: Oh, the W3C people have had lengthy discussions on these topics on the W3C public mailing lists. In essence, the result of those discussions was that:

1. Scrollbars is by no means the "natural" choice for UI for scrolling. It's merely one of a number of possible alternatives. For large size screens, it's close to but not quite entirely ubiquitous. For small size screens, different solutions are common. The scrolling semantics applies not at all to non-interactive or non-visual media.
2. Scrollbar mechanics differ between devices, operative systems and programs, and can't easily be generalised to one set of properties.
3. Different systems have different controls that behave different.
4. OS specific HIG and OS consistency is for usability and accessibility reasons more important than document control over UI control appearances.

Lavalamp: User stylesheets allow disabling of custom scrollbar properties in iew. Why would moz be any different,. if they did implement it?

AaronW
11-08-2004, 07:50 PM
Well they could just simply state that scrollbars inside the document should be colourable with the following properties: "...". Browsers would then interpret those rules as they wanted (can't see them interpreting them in a terribly different way than the obvious).

Either that or browser makers should agree on a standard. But that's not likely to happen.

lavalamp
11-08-2004, 08:18 PM
Lavalamp: User stylesheets allow disabling of custom scrollbar properties in iew. Why would moz be any different,. if they did implement it?Well I don't know my way around IE as well as I do Moz so I will admit I didn't know that. However, neither Moz nor IE allows the user to pick and choose which specific bits of CSS to apply and which bits not to, why should scroll-bar styles get any special treatment? (assuming, like you say, if Moz was to implement them)

llizard
11-09-2004, 12:53 AM
Ah, lavalamp, I didn't realize that you were playing Devil's advocate. Excuse me.


Browsers don't usually let you pick and choose which bits of CSS you want to support and which bits you don't.

I wasn't suggesting picking and choosing. I was suggesting disabling the styles altogether for offending pages. If the scrollbar colours on someone's page are disturbing you, it's very likely that the rest of the styles will too.

If it's true that various OS have completely different scrollbar properties, then forget about getting w3c to put scrollbar styling into the standards. Designers have to stop being such control freaks and come to terms with the fact that the web is not the same as paper. It is fluid. A web designer can only give the general idea and hope that various browsers and OS will interpret the idea in mostly the same way. Other than that, the designer should relax and know that everyone is seeing things slightly (or a lot) differently. (Except of course the IE folks - they're seeing things COMPLETELY differently for the most part. I've just spent rather a lot of time trying to stop IE from turning an inline list image backwards. I've given up trying to fix it. I decided that anyone who uses IE will expect a few backwards images and may even miss them if they're not there. :D)

PhotoJoe47
11-18-2005, 10:16 PM
I one of those who think the page designer should have control of the scroll bar colors. But it should be done in good taste and clarity (you know be able to see the scroll bar elements).

Also if any scroll bars are inside the page, don't you think the designer should be able to control the color scheme so that it matches the color scheme he is using on the rest of the page?

gsnedders
11-18-2005, 10:25 PM
PhotoJoe47, why dig up such an old thread, where what you say has already been discussed many times...

PhotoJoe47
11-18-2005, 10:48 PM
PhotoJoe47, why dig up such an old thread, where what you say has already been discussed many times...

I was reading the thread because I was pointed to it by another user in response to a question I posted in the DOM Forum. I only read the first page of the thread and did not notice that it had more pages. I must have I thought I was at the end and the more pages section must have been just below the scrollable area of the page.

Besides I have a right to my say. Don't I, even if others think it is stupid? :D

I would not posted what I did if I had notice the other pages



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