...

View Full Version : Windows 8, they joking right ?



firepages
07-05-2012, 03:15 AM
hmmmm put Windows 8 on a VM last night, what a (broken) crock of !@##

OK, up front, I admit it , I hate change , I am still getting over unity/gnome-shell in linux (now on xfce) BUT at least they are consistent with that monstrosity.

Windows 8 is like 2 OS's living in the same hut & neither much like the other one much but play together cos daddy makes them.

Metro is interesting and cool for a phone or a tablet for personal/social stuff but a productivity platform it ain't.

So to do anything else you have to switch to Desktop mode where as per usual they removed or moved the things you used most , so its windows 7 , only broken.
.... why no start button ? what muppet thought that one up? seriously ? whats the gain ? ... nothing, whats the pain .. squillions of confused users.
I have not tried dual screen yet since only in my VM but I can imagine the hot-corners are going to be a PITA on dual 27's ...

In Advance YES I know this is not final release but its more like an unfinished side-project than a final release.
No I wont be using it anyway but my clients will, and sooner or later I am gonna have to come up with something nice to say about it because I sell computers, and when they pull the plug on 7 I have to start making things up .. lest they go buy a mac :(

funniest thing is that (as a linux advocate) this would have been the perfect launchpad for ubuntu/mint/$flavour if of course it were not for gnome-shell/unity, Ubuntu 10.10 vs Windows 8 ? I could have sold that :)

myfayt
07-05-2012, 03:23 AM
I think Windows 8 is junk also

cf_member
07-05-2012, 04:00 AM
I think Windows 8 is still under experiment and still beta .
No w8 have been in final released so I guess we can expect
a lot of difference in windows 8.

Major Payne
07-05-2012, 07:33 AM
Windows 8 because it was hungry.

firepages
07-07-2012, 01:48 AM
well played enough now to be sure I hate it , it is quite fast for sure but thats about it, installed photoshop on it since thats the only reason I ever use windows (me not a gamer) and runs nice and crisp even in VM with 2 and a bit GB + 2 cores.

but its still stupid.

and I know the metro interface looks cool on page one... but the metro-style components and dialogs that you get when in desktop mode just look childish when on the real desktop, like your five year old just started playing with MSPaint or something :)

looking forward to windows 9 :)

myfayt
07-07-2012, 03:26 AM
I say it's time to go backwards, Windows 7, 6, 5
Windows XP was like the greatest windows OS so far. I say go back to that one and build on it.

pr0xy122
07-07-2012, 09:33 AM
No start button? Wow really..

How do you access your programs? Just through shortcuts or something??

jimutt
07-07-2012, 11:02 AM
No start button? Wow really..

How do you access your programs? Just through shortcuts or something??

Nah. just left click in the bottom left corner of the screen and it will bring up the metro start screen where you can add all your prefered shortcuts for programs. And if you want to access other programs you just right click somewhere on the screen and choose "all apps".

Actually I don't really miss the start menu that much when you get used to the shortcuts available in windows 8. Though I can't really say that I've found many improvements compared to windows 7. But after a while you get kind of used to the new interface.

Though I would prefer to have an option for using the usual start button. I mean, since windows 8 really is nothing more than a windows 7 addon it wouldn't be that hard to leave an option for having the start button.

And I really feel sorry for all guys like Firepages who will need to help thousands of confused users who are upset because they can't even figure out how to shut off the computer in Windows 8. Because there sure will be a lot of people having problems with this OS.

tangoforce
07-07-2012, 04:34 PM
hmmmm put Windows 8 on a VM last night

Mind me asking how? - I tried it in VMWare and the installer just kept rebooting :o

Admittedly it's an older version of VMW but even so, as long as it provides a virtual disk I wouldn't have thought it would matter really. What did you use?

I've not heard a lot of good about W8 myself. It seems that M$ have a two OS cycle where they release a good, bad, good, bad etc. To prove that..:

Win95: Good
Win98 (inc Win98SE): Bad
WinMe: Good IMO but the rest of the world said bad even though it crashed less than 98
WinXP: Good
Vista: Bad
Win7: Good
Win8: Logical conclusion? - Bad - Hold out for Win9 instead :D

I personally like Win7 a lot however for sheer wonderfulness you just can't beat XP. Not only was XP pro rock solid, XP home is also very stable too - I have it on my netbook and rarely bother to restart it but just hibernate it. What I would say about Win7 is that I like the newer version of the task manager which lets you see more and do more and despite being Win7 HP, like XP home it also has a system service controller so that I can install my custom services that I create rather than trying to run hidden programs in the background like on Me / 98. The day MS introduced system services on a home OS was a very happy one for me :thumbsup:

firepages
07-07-2012, 04:44 PM
Mind me asking how? - I tried it in VMWare and the installer just kept rebooting :o


actually using VirtualBox on xubuntu, I have ignored VirtualBox for ages because it used to be useless, e.g. no USB support etc, but thought I would give it a try since I am sick and tired of VMware changing editions/licensing etc every other day + you often have to patch it to get it to work on the latest Linux kernels ...

sooooo since VirtualBox (now Oracle-VirtualBox ;)) was available as a prebuilt debian package I gave it a go and .. wow a million times better than before, USB works , far easier to understand virtual network options, windows 8 ready (its in the list of 'what are you going to install') and so far so very good, though I did like the Unity feature in VMware so you could bring your windows programs to your Linux desktop, as far as I can tell thats not in the options :(

install was fast and easy (installed from ISO image) and all good until I get into windows8 itself ~ it runs very well, just really not liking it as noted above.

Windows 7 is good yes, seriously they should have split 8 as a tablet/phone edition or similar.... XP was cool but better hardware support in W7 so using that for anything windows related I have to do, and yes waiting for W9 now as well :)

actually IE10 is quite cool, not that I gonna start using it but did quite like the feel of it.

jimutt
07-07-2012, 05:28 PM
Windows 7 is good yes, seriously they should have split 8 as a tablet/phone edition or similar...

That would actually be a really good idea I think. Or at least the best choice they could have made. Because it's quite obvious that the metro style start menu etc is only created with touch devices in mind. And even though microsoft has said that they believe in a very big increase of PCs with touch screens the majority of computers will still run standard screens for quite many years. Especially when keeping in mind that the mots common screen resolutions are 1024x768 and 1280x800...

firepages
07-07-2012, 05:44 PM
.... though I did like the Unity feature in VMware so you could bring your windows programs to your Linux desktop, as far as I can tell thats not in the options :(

aha wrong :), it is , its called `seamless mode` , a bad example here ..

http://www.firepages.org/unity1.png

bad cos at this point cant seem to find the hotspots in the VM in seamless mode :(



That would actually be a really good idea I think. Or at least the best choice they could have made. Because it's quite obvious that the metro style start menu etc is only created with touch devices in mind. And even though microsoft has said that they believe in a very big increase of PCs with touch screens the majority of computers will still run standard screens for quite many years. Especially when keeping in mind that the mots common screen resolutions are 1024x768 and 1280x800...


absolut, I mean 90% of windows users are not gonna be on touchscreens, corporate desktops etc... mad

firepages
07-07-2012, 06:02 PM
hmmm ok seamless mode is NOT the same as unity mode in VMware , it brings the whole VM to your screen instead of the individual windows and no drag and drop :( never mind.

http://www.firepages.org/unity2.png

firepages
07-07-2012, 06:28 PM
lmao, safe mode .. we are in safe mode most of the day at work, but Microsoft thought it was too hard for us...

'Their new approach gives users access to advanced startup options, but without all that rapid F8 tapping nonsense.'

instead ...

'When you reboot/turn on a windows 8 PC, hold the Shift button and mash the F8 key (when done properly) this will boot you into the new advanced “recovery mode”

from here go to , where you can choose "See advanced repair options"> select troubleshoot>select advance options>select windows startup settings, from here you can choose enable safe mode.'

oh soooo much easier :)

myfayt
07-07-2012, 09:17 PM
They don't understand that Elderly people and those new to technology will never be able to use Win 8

Spookster
07-07-2012, 09:31 PM
.... why no start button ? what muppet thought that one up? seriously ? whats the gain ? ... nothing, whats the pain .. squillions of confused users.

Probably the same one that said "I know, lets get rid of the standard menu bar in our applications that is a standard GUI style worldwide on every OS for the last 20 years and invent something called the 'ribbon'."

tangoforce
07-07-2012, 10:31 PM
Talking of touch screens, I think MS are going towards this far too quickly and assuming the rest of the world will follow just as quickly. We're in a massive recession worldwide, people don't have the money for tablets etc.

A touch screen is simply a glorified mouse pointer anyway and frankly I prefer a full sized keyboard and mouse as its far more practical.

Major Payne
07-08-2012, 10:49 AM
looking forward to windows 9 :)Hope there is never a 9. Should never have been a 7 or 8. Let's go back to Win 3.1/Win 95-98/ME and just redo those the way they should have been done in the first place. How about a Winux? Combo of Windows and Linux. :D OK, Lindows will work, too. :p

firepages
07-08-2012, 04:06 PM
OK, Lindows will work, too. :p

lol there was a Lindows, which became (after litigation) Linspire which is now owned by Xandros (http://www.xandros.com/products/desktop/) which is a commercial Linux distribution with an incredibly dull website even though Xandros ala 4 or 5 years ago was one of the best looking linux dirtros out there ... sigh

tangoforce
07-08-2012, 06:16 PM
Hope there is never a 9. Should never have been a 7 or 8. Let's go back to Win 3.1/Win 95-98/ME and just redo those the way they should have been done in the first place. How about a Winux? Combo of Windows and Linux. :D OK, Lindows will work, too. :p

I disagree. Win95 imo was ok but clearly not up to the job for today. 98 was ****, Me was actually pretty decent IMO - the BSODs reduced dramatically over Win98 even though many people slated it saying 98 was better (no idea how that works).

IMO, XP was the ultimate though. Used by everyone from home users to huge companies, police forces, councils etc. It was a great all rounder, supported almost everything, could be adapted to do everything and was almost crash resistant.

Win7 is pretty decent too but the amount of people using it is still less than XP and that says something IMO. Even though I use 7 myself with minimal hassle, there are still some things that were easier on XP.

XP definiately has my vote as the best MS system. Even now many places are still refusing to upgrade from it and it was the first M$ OS that forced M$ to continue supporting it after their cancellation of support.

Major Payne
07-08-2012, 06:38 PM
Yep, knew about Lindows. Hope no one else is gonna take me too seriously here on my comments. :D I will not go to Win 8 or higher. Used Win 7 and it isn't too bad, but as with all of Micro$oft's changes... costs too much and the changes just are not worth it.

oracleguy
07-09-2012, 01:30 AM
I disagree. Win95 imo was ok but clearly not up to the job for today. 98 was ****, Me was actually pretty decent IMO - the BSODs reduced dramatically over Win98 even though many people slated it saying 98 was better (no idea how that works).

IMO, XP was the ultimate though. Used by everyone from home users to huge companies, police forces, councils etc. It was a great all rounder, supported almost everything, could be adapted to do everything and was almost crash resistant.

By today's standards 95 and 98 are both crap but nostalgia has a funny way of making people remembering things better than they were.

Windows 7 is so much better than XP though. The CPU scheduler actually understands the difference between physical and logical cores, it has TRIM support for SSDs, the 64-bit support is solid, the UAC is much better compared to Vista and you don't run as admin all the time unlike standard XP.

People say XP is great but usually forget how awful it was when it came out. It wasn't until 4 years later (SP2) that it became decent. It had driver issues, stability problems and all the programs people brought over from 9x had tons of issues since they were all written for the old architecture. (Granted that is hardly the fault of the OS but that didn't stop people from blaming it.)

Those of us that had been on Windows 2000 thought the fisher price user interface was silly. I remember when XP was coming out people were swearing they'd never upgrade to it and that Windows 2000 was what they were going to stick to.

I think the Windows 8 user interface is dumb and I'm not planning to upgrade to it right away. I like Windows 7 and there is still another 8 years of support for it so I can take my time. I might give Windows 8 a try on one of my spare computers some time soon though.

I've been using 7 since before it was released and it has been a pretty solid and stable OS for me. XP certainly became good and I got a lot of work done on it but 7 is still better.



Win7 is pretty decent too but the amount of people using it is still less than XP and that says something IMO. Even though I use 7 myself with minimal hassle, there are still some things that were easier on XP.

XP definiately has my vote as the best MS system. Even now many places are still refusing to upgrade from it and it was the first M$ OS that forced M$ to continue supporting it after their cancellation of support.

Can you cite your source for XP being more widely used than Windows 7? These sources which offer a good cross section of the internet say otherwise:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2012-04/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm


As for support, I think you are being disingenuous to Microsoft, they always support their OSes much longer than their rivals. They are planning to support Vista until 2017 and 7 until 2020. That is a really long time to support one piece of software. They supported Windows 2000 until 2010 and NT4 until 2004. And they don't just sneak the dates up on people, they are published way in advance (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/products/lifecycle#section_2). They can't support it forever, people have to upgrade eventually or be left behind. I'm all for some good Microsoft bashing but lets try and keep some perspective.

firepages
07-09-2012, 02:09 AM
They are planning to support Vista until 2017
to be fair, that wont be hard I think there are only abut 42 Vista users left :)

+ I think its only quite recently that Win7 got the best of XP as the most used windows and I read 2 conflicting reports recently ... (cant find them when I need them of course) 1 said XP , the other said 7 , so I think its only recently tipping which when you think abut how long XP has been out there is quite amazing.

I do remember the fuss when XP came out though :) it was slammed as well, I actually liked it from the get-go (I think, its been a long time and my memory ain't what it used to be) but most of the problems were as you say driver/application support based which will probably not be the case with 8.
Your apps and devices will still work under windows 8 .. you just might not be able to find them~!@

Still using 8 here in the VM which I read everywhere is not a fair way to judge it, its still fast but still very annoying especially without touch, which is daft cos when I am in there using photoshop or VCC etc the last thing I want is touch...
If I want to test in IE I have to be careful that I get the 'real' IE and not the app since with the app I cant see anything else I am doing, multi-tasking-a-no-no.
Sorry but its stupid, on my Android phone it makes sense since I have 4 inches or so to play with, on my dual head 27+23 its laughable.

I really think this could go oh so very wrong for microsoft, Metro might make Bob and ME and Vista UAC look like a mere flesh wound next to this.
Or I could just to too old and stuck in my ways (perfectly possible) , luckily however I still have my charm and good looks to get me through ;)

tangoforce
07-09-2012, 01:36 PM
As firepages says, I think if it has tipped, it's only recent. XP was slated a lot back in the day especially for its raw sockets however it was really the first in a new generation of OS's that combined both home and business computing and stability. Sure it may not of been brilliant until SP2 came out but when it did, it was a very good OS.

Yes I do like Win7 and yes it is very good - I can't deny that, it's on my main desktop machine and I've no intention of going back to XP but all my VMs still run XP along with my other machines purely because it is so usable and easy to get things done with. In all, a very good OS. As for support, XP came out in what.. 2000? Support ended recently for it in the last year or two if I remember correctly. Now apparently I've slated them for that. On the contrary, I did no such thing, I merely pointed out that it was such a popular OS that it forced MS to extend their support for it. I never slated them for trying to withdraw it as its only natural that they will do so at some point.

oracleguy
07-09-2012, 06:13 PM
Yes I do like Win7 and yes it is very good - I can't deny that, it's on my main desktop machine and I've no intention of going back to XP but all my VMs still run XP along with my other machines purely because it is so usable and easy to get things done with. In all, a very good OS. As for support, XP came out in what.. 2000? Support ended recently for it in the last year or two if I remember correctly. Now apparently I've slated them for that. On the contrary, I did no such thing, I merely pointed out that it was such a popular OS that it forced MS to extend their support for it. I never slated them for trying to withdraw it as its only natural that they will do so at some point.

Fair enough, sorry for misunderstanding what you were trying to say.

By the way support for XP will end in 2014. Non-security relates updates have stopped though. It came out in 2001.

I think the balanced tipped at least 6 months ago. I guess that can be considered recently in the grand scheme of things. According to the Wikimedia stats the balance tipped for their visitors around September 2011.

I think Microsoft made a huge error in letting XP be the only OS for so long. Back when they were releasing new versions every couple years people expected it and were ok upgrading. Now some people have gotten complacent and lazy (I'm speaking in general, not anyone specific.) and they don't see why they should have to upgrade.

ShaneC
07-10-2012, 01:54 AM
I've been using Windows 8 for a few months as my primary work system and I haven't experienced any decline in my efficiency (and, mind you, I'm a very technical user). If you want to live in Desktop mode you can. I never launch Metro unless I want to (typically for quick internet browsing or mail). Beyond that, the only cross-over is in the start menu which, for me, is better than Win7 as searching is faster. You can pin items just as you did in the old menu but with the added benefit of at-a-glance info with Live Tiles.

Another important consideration here is that you're judging Windows 8 in the hardware context of Windows 7 and prior. It can be analogized to running the original Windows GUI on a machine that had no mouse (though, admittedly, not to the same extreme). Windows 8 is wonderful and fluid with touch, and when you use only keyboard and mouse you're not getting the intended experience. Hardware will catch up, I'm sure, but it's not there yet.

Now, I'm not suggesting the upgrade will be an easy transition for everyone. Power users scarcely like change, and I see them being the ones to cling to older versions (just like they did with DOS back in the day). However this is a shift that needed to happen.

Many of you have mentioned this feels like two experiences, that it's great for a tablet but sketchy for a PC. And, as it stands at this exact moment in time, I don't disagree. The bigger picture, though, is that those lines are blurring more everyday. The PC in its current form factor, being immobile and chained to a desk with a keyboard and a mouse, is dying a slow death.

Products like the Surface Pro (http://microsoft.com/surface) represent a very real idea of an ultra mobile tablet which can just as easily serve as your primary machine. Windows 8 is an OS that, unlike every other tablet OS, allows you to be just as productive in a mobile environment as you are sitting at a desk. Have all your files and applications with you at all times, and allow your settings to sync ubiquitously in the cloud.

Like I said, it's a change -- a big change for some (lookin' at you XP users). However I honestly think it's a change which opens up more doors down the road we're going. Otherwise, we'd be left hoping that this whole mobile computing business is just a fad.

livetecshosting
07-10-2012, 11:38 AM
Windows 7 seems to be best Windows operating so far. And we are waiting for Windows 8 release just because of getting Windows tablet.

tangoforce
07-10-2012, 12:36 PM
Fair enough, sorry for misunderstanding what you were trying to say.

No worries!



By the way support for XP will end in 2014. Non-security relates updates have stopped though.

To be honest, I've never even needed MS support for XP. It's been a great OS to me over the years for ease of use and configuration etc. Anything serious going wrong and I'd just reformat and reinstall :D I'm not really bothered about the support ending.

My main machine is now Win7 and yes, I love it! It's a wonderful system, very graphical and easy to use but I only have home premium whereas I've managed to accumulate a few machines and licences with XP Pro that allows terminal services etc (headless machines hooked up only via ethernet) which I simply can't do with 7HP :( Thats the only thing I dislike about 7HP - no inbound remote desktop so I have to leave a VNC server running instead.

As a main desktop OS though, I can't beat it. XP was getting a bit boring to be honest although it was rock solid so when I found this machine at a bargin price (brand new, unopened) with keyboard, monitor, mouse etc for under 100 including Win7HP.. I couldn't beat it and snatched the last one off the shelf :D It's been the best little machine I've ever had - quietest machine I've had, most powerful (2GHz, 2GB DDR3), smallest, sleekest.. I really can't complain for an emachine :thumbsup: No idea how emachines evern managed the OS at that price yet alone the hardware :confused:

As for Windows8.. I'm hearing far more bad stuff than good so I doubt I'm going to even bother with it - It wouldn't boot in VMWare so that was more than enough for me!

firepages
07-11-2012, 02:29 AM
Otherwise, we'd be left hoping that this whole mobile computing business is just a fad.


and thats what MS appear to be hoping about desktop computing ... just a fad :)

Photoshop/AutoCad/MyOB/Quicken/DTP/Office suites ..etc etc .. all just a fad as well ? please try doing anything other than conceptual art in photoshop via touch, or your month end accounts or.... well you get the picture, a large proportion of the common usagae of computers will benefit not a jot from a touch interface , you will need to hook your device up to a Monitor(s) keyboard and mouse (or some other pointing device that is sharper than a finger)

So if you assume the above to be true... why default to a touch user interface ?
Why not give an option of desktop as default ... in fact why not detect the size of the screen & if it is touch-enabled only then default to Metro (so my phone gets Metro, my Tablet gives me a choice and my desktop gets .. errr a desktop)

I am sure Microsoft could outsource such a project if their programmers are having problems using VCC++ on their touchscreen tablets ;)

ShaneC
07-11-2012, 02:40 AM
and thats what MS appear to be hoping about desktop computing ... just a fad :)

You're speaking as if the desktop has been removed completely! The desktop in all its glory is still a big part of the operating system. Microsoft has communicated that by saying that the next office will run in Desktop Mode (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/02/09/building-windows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx?CommentPosted=true#commentmessage).

All that has changed here is you're adding another method of input into the mix -- touch. You speak as if every desktop PC user is a programmer, or an accountant, or a graphic designer. The fact is, an extremely large number of people use PCs as internet machines, bill payers, e-mail creators, and game players. These experiences are streamlined in Metro and present a very attractive UX.

For the coders, the desktop still exists. You have mouse, you have keyboard, you have everything you input with today (and more). Yes, the start menu is gone - but did you truly live in the start menu? Can you not pin applications to the Metro Start Menu the same as you did before?


I am sure Microsoft could outsource such a project if their programmers are having problems using VCC++ on their touchscreen tablets

This is an important point to remember. We (MSFT Engineers) are power users, coders, spreadsheet crunchers, and the like. Many of us (including me) have been using Windows 8 for months, and Microsoft has far from come crashing to a halt.

firepages
07-11-2012, 03:09 AM
Can you not pin applications to the Metro Start Menu the same as you did before?


I am sure you can, but the start menu is not where it is supposed to be, it takes over my screen so I cant see what else I am doing, I have to WindowsC to see it or potentially scroll 27+13 inches to see it ~ and if I accidentally click a metro app ... wait, wait, fullscreen app ...grrrr



The desktop in all its glory is still a big part of the operating system. Microsoft has communicated that by saying that the next office will run in Desktop Mode.


... so why Metro as unchangeable default ?



This is an important point to remember. We (MSFT Engineers) are power users, coders, spreadsheet crunchers, and the like. Many of us (including me) have been using Windows 8 for months, and Microsoft has far from come crashing to a halt.


... so why Metro as unchangeable default

I am all for adding `another method of input to the mix`

... but why Metro as unchangeable default :)

I am not bagging Metro as such, I am not anti-microsoft )although I am a daily linux user) all it would take to shut me up is an option for Desktop mode as default (perhaps it already exists I just cant see it)

thats it.. :) a traditional start menu I still think is daft to not include as an option but thats not the end of the world , in my gnome-shell or unity I use cairo-dock since there is no default menu there either.

Actually Unity/Gnome 3 is a good case in point, Gnome went all touchy-feely on us, Ubuntu devs (and Mr.Torvalds himself) hated it and instead recreated their own ...even worse :) version of it.

Most everyone I know who are regular linux users have dropped back to Gnome2 distros or converted to Xface/KDE/Some Other manager, linux users love choice, and are voting with their mouses. Luckily for me if I don't like the desktop environment I can simply install an alternative , Windows users will not have this option.

under the hood Windows 8 is very Windows 7 without a start menu so why not give a 'traditional' interface option ?

ShaneC
07-11-2012, 04:12 AM
... so why Metro as unchangeable default ?

Because, as I alluded to in my earlier post, Metro isn't just a Windows 8 design choice - it's a paradigm shift. Windows 8 is a clear attempt to blur the lines between your traditional PC and your mobile PC and provide a ubiquitous experience across all platforms.

I understand that users who don't like change (and I would probably count myself among them) are going to be uncomfortable initially. But, just like GUI was in its day, this is an important change and to not be moving forward at this point is very much moving backward.

If users simply had the ability to turn it off it wouldn't be a very effective shift, would it? People are naturally resistant to change and love to stick with what they know. I can probably count on one hand the amount of bold design choices, that turned out to be effective in the end, which were initially berated by the user base (leers at Facebook).

firepages
07-11-2012, 07:56 AM
I do understand what you are saying and I get what Microsoft are trying to do, but I think if you blur the line between a pussycat and a tiger you could get hurt, same family different habits.

It looks to me like Microsoft have created a (very nice) hammer but now everything looks like a nail.

in other words is that I don't think you can blur the line that much and get away with it, I fully expect and look forward to one day (sooner rather than later please) this (http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android) when I can put my next HTC/Samsung phone into my dock/KVM and start working away on a full size keyboard/mouse/monitor(s) but I do expect that the OS will be bright enough to realize that it is now a regular computer and adjust its interface to suit.

I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all for computing/mobile computing, we will see and I may be wrong (I was wrong once before in 1982 I think ;)) but I do think its a massive gamble for microsoft... actually I think its a no-brainer of a balls up but who knows :)

ShaneC
07-11-2012, 08:25 PM
It looks to me like Microsoft have created a (very nice) hammer but now everything looks like a nail. in other words is that I don't think you can blur the line that much and get away with it...

I'm just not getting the hammer analogy. You're not forced to live in Metro. If you want to avoid Metro entirely you can, the only thing that has changed for you is the Start Menu (and some UI tweaks like networking), which you are in a tiny fraction of the time you're on your computer.


when I can put my next HTC/Samsung phone into my dock/KVM and start working away on a full size keyboard/mouse/monitor(s) but I do expect that the OS will be bright enough to realize that it is now a regular computer and adjust its interface to suit.

The misunderstanding here, I think, is the assumption that Metro is only for mobile. It isn't. I've seen a lot of individuals who like it on their traditional desktops. It's simple, it's immersive. Not every PC user is an epic multitasker with e-mail, chat, Netflix, and Starcraft all up at the same time.

If you're the former user, Metro mode is there for you on all your devices. If you're the latter then, to reiterate my last point, you're not forced to live in Metro.

firepages
07-12-2012, 08:25 AM
I'm just not getting the hammer analogy. You're not forced to live in Metro. If you want to avoid Metro entirely you can,......


but you are taken there by default, and can quite easily end up back in there accidentally, and you have to use the childish Charm screens, lol and Metro shows EVERYTHING installed on my computer event manager, ODBC data sources :)

+ there are other problems (device manager, windows '.', left hand preview tabs which mostly don't actually work (at least not for me))as well though its not fair to start on them with a release-candidate which is still very beta-ish.



The misunderstanding here, I think, is the assumption that Metro is only for mobile.


no totally the opposite, no misunderstanding at all :) , the misunderstanding is that 95% of windows 8 users will NOT be using a mobile nor a touch screen for some while to come unless Windows Phone can outdo android/ios, even then windows 8 will be pushed onto millions of machines that have no touch or are impractical for touch (standard 23+inch screens)



It isn't. I've seen a lot of individuals who like it on their traditional desktops. It's simple, it's immersive. Not every PC user is an epic multitasker with e-mail, chat, Netflix, and Starcraft all up at the same time.


immersive ;) I saw that coined somewhere else from microsoft, its (IMO) a cop-out, one can choose to be immersed in 1 application at any time on any OS simply by clicking fullscreen.

no not everyone is a multi-tasker in the true sense and there are times when metro style apps will be useful and fun like my HTC mobile is on android, but for everyday computing the vast majority of day to day at work users will not be using Metro & I think you know that ;) ... if it was not default then that would not really be an issue.

Anyway we are going to have to agree to disagree here methinks ! all I can say in my wrap up is as before, it feels like 2 operating systems glued together, badly, the edges don't quite fit, one half is interesting but not much use in my everyday tasks and the other if fine, albeit missing a few bits which could quite easily been left in without causing anyone any pain.Also whenever I pick it up, the broken side is always facing me... every time :)

alykins
07-19-2012, 10:42 PM
I just saw/used the Win8 UI today on a friends tablet- my first thought is figure out how to pin something to the task bar in DT mode- make a folder "Virtual TaskBar" and then pin it there- then dump every single program shortcut, control panel shortcut, etc I need in there and re-create the task bar

not that that is practical- but my opinion on that being my first thought is that they have seriously taken a few steps back.. i think they should have kept the taskbar in DT mode and simply made it so you could flip to metro...
another thing i think they screwed up is the windows search... that is sooooooo powerful- I use it all the time on Win7. It is still there, but not intuitive- and not easy to use... and if you are in DT mode it is even harder to 'flip to it' quickly...
I think of all the uses that I would lose if that went away... often I just windowskey+ :
cmd; remo + enter; sql + enter; vis + (enter 2010, down enter 2008, down down enter sourcesafe); core + enter; wire + enter; bey + enter;
I also could not figure out for the life of me how to right-click something on the "taskbar"... the regular rightclick action just prompts to move the square. I didn't try it, but I am guessing that it is beyond hidden how to runas... something as well.

I will say i think it looks "fun"... I think it has a great look if you like the HTC and that whole layout- but I really think they did not think of the entire development community when they created this- or moreover any IT prof.

stevenmw
07-19-2012, 11:16 PM
well played enough now to be sure I hate it , it is quite fast for sure but thats about it, installed photoshop on it since thats the only reason I ever use windows (me not a gamer) and runs nice and crisp even in VM with 2 and a bit GB + 2 cores.

but its still stupid.

and I know the metro interface looks cool on page one... but the metro-style components and dialogs that you get when in desktop mode just look childish when on the real desktop, like your five year old just started playing with MSPaint or something :)

looking forward to windows 9 :)


I agree entirely. I'd have all my computers running on Debian if it weren't for MS Word (I HAVE to HAVE it for school.) I do also enjoy Photoshop. (I'm not a gamer either.)

I was reading comparisons of Win 7 and Win 8. They tested a machine very similar too mine, and all I got out of the article was Win 8 being faster. Which is a good thing, but at what cost?

Win 8 booted in around 36.8 seconds, and 7 in around 56.whatever. Even if that is a very noticeable difference having to switch from Metro to Desktop.. And the desktop being poorly set up just makes me think failure.

I know all those people who like their pretty GUIs might like it.. But to me it's all just bloat and bog.

firepages
07-20-2012, 01:37 AM
hmmm, I think I am slowly getting it ... I don't mean liking windows 8 but getting what microsoft are up to.

Apps, apparently they make 30% of each app download, and if you want to write apps you have to use their IDE (I think, don't quote me) and that is not free either.

I guess thats why Metro is default and why its locked as default, the lack of a start menu? just a kick whilst you are down ;)

even at the server end microsoft are doing weird stuff, exchange will no longer have `shared folders` in the classic sense, and sorry but thats the one and only reason to use exchange rather than any other IMAP system, with that essentially gone one could replace exchange with any flavour of postfix/courier/etc and not suffer.... and then for the vast majority of non-enterprise users ... do you really need active directory ? really ? most of my clients don't, the only reason they have a windows server is exchange.

Really the linux community should be kicking themselves with pointy boots right now, short of MINT all the current high flyers are broken with gnome-shell or bad clones (unity) else some OEMs might have had another bash at the linux desktop, as it is they are mostly flirting with alternative android `fun-boots`

stevenmw
07-20-2012, 04:48 AM
hmmm, I think I am slowly getting it ... I don't mean liking windows 8 but getting what microsoft are up to.

Apps, apparently they make 30% of each app download, and if you want to write apps you have to use their IDE (I think, don't quote me) and that is not free either.

I guess thats why Metro is default and why its locked as default, the lack of a start menu? just a kick whilst you are down ;)

even at the server end microsoft are doing weird stuff, exchange will no longer have `shared folders` in the classic sense, and sorry but thats the one and only reason to use exchange rather than any other IMAP system, with that essentially gone one could replace exchange with any flavour of postfix/courier/etc and not suffer.... and then for the vast majority of non-enterprise users ... do you really need active directory ? really ? most of my clients don't, the only reason they have a windows server is exchange.

Really the linux community should be kicking themselves with pointy boots right now, short of MINT all the current high flyers are broken with gnome-shell or bad clones (unity) else some OEMs might have had another bash at the linux desktop, as it is they are mostly flirting with alternative android `fun-boots`


Don't even get me started on the Unity GUI. Just another pretty GUI for all the hipsters.. Just like Mac..

stevenmw
07-21-2012, 05:22 AM
I installed Win 8 on my VM. I do not like the set up, or the look so far. It is fast..

cathyw
07-24-2012, 05:59 AM
I am not very like this mode of windows 8, it is better suited for tablet computer.

primefalcon
07-24-2012, 10:45 PM
Do be fair about the fisher price comment with XP, you could disable that and go to a window 200'ish look with it which actually saved a lot of resources...

I changed to Linux around 2007, and I have to say do prefer the if you don't like the UI, just choose different one aspect... for example a lot of people hated Unity from Ubuntu (which I honestly like)... so they simply just opened the Software center and clicked to install XFCE or KDE or whatever... and for them... problem solved...

Who knows Microsoft might allow this one day.... and call it their innovation like they did with the UAC concept... which just seems a steal from sudo...

And did anyone much ever use Vista, I think most people just stuck with XP and then upgraded to 7 when it came out, though XP still has a huge userbase

sage45
07-26-2012, 10:14 PM
to be fair, that wont be hard I think there are only abut 42 Vista users left :)

+ I think its only quite recently that Win7 got the best of XP as the most used windows and I read 2 conflicting reports recently ... (cant find them when I need them of course) 1 said XP , the other said 7 , so I think its only recently tipping which when you think abut how long XP has been out there is quite amazing.

I do remember the fuss when XP came out though :) it was slammed as well, I actually liked it from the get-go (I think, its been a long time and my memory ain't what it used to be) but most of the problems were as you say driver/application support based which will probably not be the case with 8.
Your apps and devices will still work under windows 8 .. you just might not be able to find them~!@

Still using 8 here in the VM which I read everywhere is not a fair way to judge it, its still fast but still very annoying especially without touch, which is daft cos when I am in there using photoshop or VCC etc the last thing I want is touch...
If I want to test in IE I have to be careful that I get the 'real' IE and not the app since with the app I cant see anything else I am doing, multi-tasking-a-no-no.
Sorry but its stupid, on my Android phone it makes sense since I have 4 inches or so to play with, on my dual head 27+23 its laughable.

I really think this could go oh so very wrong for microsoft, Metro might make Bob and ME and Vista UAC look like a mere flesh wound next to this.
Or I could just to too old and stuck in my ways (perfectly possible) , luckily however I still have my charm and good looks to get me through ;)Proud to say I am one of the 42. :D

-saige-

sage45
07-26-2012, 10:36 PM
Because, as I alluded to in my earlier post, Metro isn't just a Windows 8 design choice - it's a paradigm shift. Windows 8 is a clear attempt to blur the lines between your traditional PC and your mobile PC and provide a ubiquitous experience across all platforms.

I understand that users who don't like change (and I would probably count myself among them) are going to be uncomfortable initially. But, just like GUI was in its day, this is an important change and to not be moving forward at this point is very much moving backward.

If users simply had the ability to turn it off it wouldn't be a very effective shift, would it? People are naturally resistant to change and love to stick with what they know. I can probably count on one hand the amount of bold design choices, that turned out to be effective in the end, which were initially berated by the user base (leers at Facebook).True that it is a paradigm shift, however, I liken it to trying to blur the lines between flying a plane and driving a car.


In prepration for the day when we will all be driving flying cars all car manufacturers have agreed to release cars without the standard user interface constructs (steering wheel, brake pedal, accelerator, and gear shifter). Instead you will use a standard airplane yoke controller for steering with height control surfaces to be added at a later date. Your acceleration and deceleration will be controlled by a seperate sidestick control.

Signed,

Detroit

Plain and simple, the Windows 8 interface is more for a niche crowd and does not take user productivity and familiarity with a product seriously.

-saige-

firepages
07-28-2012, 02:16 AM
In prepration for the day when we will all be driving flying cars all car manufacturers have agreed to release cars without the standard user interface constructs (steering wheel, brake pedal, accelerator, and gear shifter). Instead you will use a standard airplane yoke controller for steering with height control surfaces to be added at a later date. Your acceleration and deceleration will be controlled by a seperate sidestick control.

Signed,

Detroit

:) spot on.

better news though .. we may at last see steam games ported to linux natively,
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/26/gabe_newell_windows_8/

though of course we have heard that promised before :( without delivery.

seriously the more I read the worse it gets for windows 8 and the more it appears that MS really don't care, they are aware that enterprise can not drop windows overnight and pinning their hopes that forcing metro down everyones throat will start `forcing/encouraging` people to move to metro based tablets and phones, where they seem to think the real money is (+ the 30% of app sales of course).

Perhaps they can and will, but would have been nice to actually have finished windows 8 first, seriously, there are dialogs etc in windows 8 that are near impossible to use via touch.. even NEW dialogs in office 2013... you would have thought someone could have told the office devs about windows 8 hey ?

cyberfanatic
07-30-2012, 10:16 AM
to me all the windows are the same .. i remember windows vista recovery mode run on windows xp. i guess they just change the name and rename the files by adding little more tweaks!

firepages
11-11-2012, 12:13 PM
lol, 1 day after release we had 4 machines in to have windows 8 taken off and 7 put back on.... also sold 3 or 4 copies as well despite best efforts advising against :)

I have been using it on my 10.1 inch gigabyte touchscreen tablet where browsing the web with the IE8 app is quite nice since the touch gestures all fall in the right place for how I hold the tablet .. after that its still a massive fail for me.

Interested to know if anyone using it full time yet and what they think.

cf_member
11-18-2012, 10:45 AM
No start button? Wow really..

How do you access your programs? Just through shortcuts or something??

There is actually. Just discover first W8. :)

firepages
11-18-2012, 03:42 PM
There is actually. Just discover first W8. :)

yup, but not as we know it, its the [formally known as]metro app search thingy, where you are just as likely to end up in an [FKA]Metro app as you are back on the desktop :eek:

seriously I am getting more puzzled each day as to what exactly they were smoking...

KULP
11-20-2012, 07:28 AM
All you do to find a file is click the windows button (takes you to metro screen) and type in what you're looking for and it gives you a search. Another way to access this search is putting your cursor in the top right or bottom right, a charms bar will pop up, and then clicking the search icon. It's extremely fast (unlike the old search feature which failed). I've been using windows 8 full time for almost 3 months and it's pretty great. Computer starts up from hibernate in 10 ish seconds, I have the metro screen where i can add various apps (i like the messenger & weather) and then I still have the desktop with classic My Computer renamed just Computer. Looking forward to getting the tablet, they're pretty great. A tablet with a desktop and sub ports? Um heck yeah.

firepages
11-21-2012, 01:55 AM
yup, I do know how it works, my question is more of a why ? ... a better search was always welcome but could have been provided with the old interface..

Anyway its good for business, though rather than the usual upgrade business we get we are getting lots of downgrade business :)

KULP
11-25-2012, 10:53 PM
a better search was always welcome but could have been provided with the old interface..

Complain much? I mean, if anything we should be complaining about having to stare at the same interface for the past 15 years.

Pressing a single key and then just freely typing = extremely fast search interface. If I'm looking for something, it's because I want to find it (shocking), all I care about is how long it takes to find what I'm looking for and open it.

firepages
05-31-2013, 03:37 AM
and STILL they don't get it..... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/29/windows_81_start_button/

yes we want the start button back, but that ain't the start button now is it ?
boot direct to desktop is good, v good, that and a proper start menu is all windows 8 actually needs , or ever needed (apart from touch-enabling some win95 dialogs they still have kicking around)

so they listened to 'us' , and gave us another way of getting back to (TIFKA)Metro, the very thing we were trying to avoid... and its taken how long ? classic shell and others managed it before 8 was even released...

Since 8 came out the ratio of our sales of 8 vs 7 (not including laptop sales) are 9 to 1, we sell 1 copy of Windows 8 for every 9 copies of Windows 7, we have removed 8 and (re)installed 7 on more systems than we have sold copies of 8.
We are a small computer store of course and yes we do push windows 7 over 8 , but most of our clients want 7 anyway, we don't need to push too hard, for laptops preinstalled with 8 we put classic shell (or similar) on when we can, not something I really want to do but man it helps with the endless phone calls ;)



EZ Archive Ads Plugin for vBulletin Copyright 2006 Computer Help Forum