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View Full Version : Microsoft to offer choice of browser in Win7



drhowarddrfine
07-24-2009, 08:24 PM
Link (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/microsoft-caves-to-eu-pressure-will-offer-browser-ballot.ars)

Microsoft has decided that the last thing it needs in this economy is some combination of the following: fines, legal bills, and a delay of Windows 7. It has offered to adopt the European Union's preferred solution for bowser competition: a browser selector screen at startup.
.

TheShaner
07-24-2009, 10:06 PM
Please select the browser you would like to install:

o Internet Explorer 8 (BEST BROWSER EVER!!)
o Mozilla Firefox 3.5 (old)
o Google Chrome 2.0 (tarnished)
o Apple Safari 4 (boring)

Click here (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspx) to find a comparison of the above browsers.

And either a) every time you select another browser, it'll automatically go back to IE8, or b) you'll select another one and it'll say "Thanks for selecting Internet Explorer 8!".

Out of curiosity... is the EU mandating that Apple must also allow the user to select a browser other than Safari? I've never owned a Mac and I know they used to come with other browsers like Firefox or the epic-fail of IE on it, but I don't know what they do currently.

-Shane

drhowarddrfine
07-24-2009, 10:12 PM
Out of curiosity... is the EU mandating that Apple must also allow the user to select a browser other than Safari?

Why should they? Apple has not violated European anti-trust laws.

oracleguy
07-25-2009, 12:23 AM
Why should they? Apple has not violated European anti-trust laws.

But shouldn't they be held to the same standard? If the EU says Microsoft can't package their own browser and set it as the default in their OS, why should Apple get a free pass?

Just because Microsoft has a larger market share? It should be mandated for all OS manufacturers, otherwise it is anti-competitive to Chrome, Firefox and Opera.

VIPStephan
07-25-2009, 01:23 AM
[Ö] I know they used to come with other browsers like Firefox or the epic-fail of IE on it, but I don't know what they do currently.

As far as I know Apple shipped their OS 8 and 9 with Internet Explorer because this was the only one available at that time (Safari was only introduced with OS X). Currently Safari is the default browser and nothing else is preinstalled or available on the installation discs so actually theyíre doing the same thing Microsoft did. And Safari is also updated through the systemís update function (but you can choose to never be bothered with newly available versions again).

drhowarddrfine
07-25-2009, 02:20 AM
But shouldn't they be held to the same standard?They are held to the same standard. Why do you think they aren't?
If the EU says Microsoft can't package their own browser and set it as the default in their OS, why should Apple get a free pass?Apple's browser follows web standards and does not require Apple software or proprietary code to work with it. IE did. Apple does not control the desktop market. Microsoft does.


Just because Microsoft has a larger market share?
No. Because they controlled the market and implemented illegal practices which blocked competitors from selling or providing their software. I thought everyone knew that. Size had nothing to do with it except when controlling the market. If you think market share is the only consideration, you have a lot of reading to do.

btw, remember that Microsoft has been charge with this on two continents and has paid $2 billion in fines for essentially the exact same thing and is still under US federal over site which was just extended last January due to Microsoft not reporting under court order.

I'm not getting into this sort of argument using the wrong reasons above. Both here, and elsewhere, people bring up those same silly statements which have NOTHING to do with the problem but are preached as gospel. If you think all that happened was Microsoft was just sitting around, selling their product and then one day, boom, they were in trouble, then you have no understand of the issues at hand and haven't read anything of all the published court papers freely available on the internet.

Perhaps you guys need to look up Microsoft vs US Government, I think, to get a better understanding of what was going on in the US, at least. Essentially the same has been brought up in the EU, but the EU said US law does not apply there.

oracleguy
07-25-2009, 06:06 AM
They are held to the same standard. Why do you think they aren't?Apple's browser follows web standards and does not require Apple software or proprietary code to work with it. IE did. Apple does not control the desktop market. Microsoft does.

If Microsoft has to provide multiple browsers with its OS in addition to their own, why doesn't Apple? Just because their browser follows web standards more closely? Or because it is cross platform? So if Microsoft offered IE on OS X and Linux, they wouldn't have to offer a choice of browsers on Windows 7?



No. Because they controlled the market and implemented illegal practices which blocked competitors from selling or providing their software. I thought everyone knew that. Size had nothing to do with it except when controlling the market. If you think market share is the only consideration, you have a lot of reading to do.


I am quite aware of Microsoft's embrace, extend, extinguish philosophy. But I was saying in regards strictly to their web browser and bundling it with Windows. I realize that in that case most people just use whatever is there and that gives Microsoft leverage. But this issue with bundling software should be held up all across the board. That is what I am saying.


If you think all that happened was Microsoft was just sitting around, selling their product and then one day, boom, they were in trouble

I don't and never said anything like that.


but the EU said US law does not apply there.

I would hope it doesn't.

drhowarddrfine
07-25-2009, 02:40 PM
This has NOTHING to do with bundling. This has EVERYTHING to do with standards compliance of IE forcing software developers to write software that only works in IE and on Windows allowing Microsoft to control the market.

bazz
07-25-2009, 10:03 PM
Yeh, it is eassdier, in my experience to code a site to work in IE as the designer wants it to. The 'extra' work involved to make it work in other browsers, can appear to be a waste of money where other browsers are so small a section of the market.


Market domination/control is not a good thing, however, if customer choice puts you in that position, it is not so bad. there is I think a direct comparison - no - contrast between M$ and goggle. (Though I think they are too big now and not as good as everyone thinks.)


I agree however, with oracleguy in as much as
1.



but the EU said US law does not apply there...
I would hope it doesn't.

It doesn't even though our governement has completely changed into a lapdog.
2.

But this issue with bundling software should be held up all across the board.

If browsers do not bring in income, surely customer choice should be the only consideration. so all computers should come pre-installed with all the compatible browsers?

bazz

drhowarddrfine
07-25-2009, 10:12 PM
Yeh, it is eassdier, in my experience to code a site to work in IE as the designer wants it to. The 'extra' work involved to make it work in other browsers, can appear to be a waste of money where other browsers are so small a section of the market.Absolutely false! It is far, far easier to make standard code work in ALL standards compliant browsers. It's far more difficult to get standard markup to work in IE which is 11 years behiind all other browsers and the worst on the planet.


I agree however, with oracleguy in as much as I shouldn't have mentioned that line. Out of context it apparently is being misunderstood.


If browsers do not bring in income, surely customer choice should be the only consideration. so all computers should come pre-installed with all the compatible browsers?

Irrelevent to the problem.

bazz
07-25-2009, 11:39 PM
Absolutely false! It is far, far easier to make standard code work in ALL standards compliant browsers. It's far more difficult to get standard markup to work in IE which is 11 years behiind all other browsers and the worst on the planet.


Oops: you seem to have spouted your own stuff about IE again, which has nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned standard code. I said it is easier to make a site work in IE. It is, if you never learned how to code for standards and you aren't designing for the standard compliant browsers.



Irrelevent to the problem.


why is it irrelevant?

Apostropartheid
07-26-2009, 12:04 AM
Guys, are we still having the same argument? drdr will never let up on the MS hate. Please stop the ill-feeling.

drhowarddrfine
07-26-2009, 12:42 AM
Oops: you seem to have spouted your own stuff about IE againWhat stuff? If you can find anything wrong with what I say, point it out.
which has nothing to do with what I said. I never mentioned standard code. I said it is easier to make a site work in IE. It is, if you never learned how to code for standards and you aren't designing for the standard compliant browsers.
That's like saying Spanish is easy if you never learned Spanish. S


why is it irrelevant?
The problem does not exist with other OSes and is not whether they bring money in and it is not necessarily about customer choice.

drhowarddrfine
07-26-2009, 12:46 AM
Guys, are we still having the same argument? drdr will never let up on the MS hate. Please stop the ill-feeling.

Are you saying I'm lying? Are you saying I'm wrong? I'm spreading falsehoods? If so, point them out. You can't. You won't. You're avoiding the truth. No one has come back with ANYTHING that says I'm wrong.

There's a difference between hate for hate's sake and truth for truth's sake.

Apostropartheid
07-26-2009, 01:32 AM
No, drdr. I'm not having this debate. But you hate MS and would die defending it. I don't particularly care if you're right or wrong, I'm pointing out that we keep having these long arguments which do nothing but build up vile.

drhowarddrfine
07-26-2009, 01:54 AM
No, drdr. I'm not having this debate. But you hate MS and would die defending it. I don't particularly care if you're right or wrong, I'm pointing out that we keep having these long arguments which do nothing but build up vile.

Why, then, are you complaining about what I'm saying and not the others? I didn't start this part of the debate. 'oracle' and shaner did. I only posted a link without comment. Perhaps you should complain that he brought it up and not complain about what I post.

Apostropartheid
07-26-2009, 02:16 AM
drdr, I did not at any point pick up on anything of what you said here, nor complained about what you post. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Deacon Frost
07-26-2009, 11:17 PM
Why, then, are you complaining about what I'm saying and not the others? I didn't start this part of the debate. 'oracle' and shaner did. I only posted a link without comment. Perhaps you should complain that he brought it up and not complain about what I post.

There's a reason trolling is frowned upon, because it then results in a pointless argument that will never be resolved by the parties arguing.

Though this is a step up for Microsoft, it's still not giving the user full control >.>. I'd rather be able to choose whether or not I even want the browser installed.

drhowarddrfine
07-26-2009, 11:51 PM
There's a reason trolling is frowned upon, because it then results in a pointless argument that will never be resolved by the parties arguing.I assume you mean me. How was I trolling? Is anyone who posts the link to that news a troll?

Deacon Frost
07-27-2009, 12:05 AM
I assume you mean me. How was I trolling? Is anyone who posts the link to that news a troll?

Sorry, quoted the wrong post >.<.

TheShaner
07-27-2009, 04:40 PM
Now look what I've started, haha. I was just asking out of ignorant curiosity. I didn't mean to flare up the tempers in here. Since I have not followed up on the anti-trust suits on MS and the EU mandate, I was just hoping for a polite explanation to get a better understanding of the consequences of the situation. I let you all fight and follow the good fight :thumbsup: I've got other interests, as we all do.

-Shane

ohgod
07-27-2009, 09:27 PM
let's just make microsoft and apple release all products with netscape as the mandatory browser

gnomeontherun
07-28-2009, 09:22 AM
Meh, lets just skip to the next generation. Internet direct into the brain!

I've mentioned this before, why don't we just have a thread for all anti-MS stuff, instead of a new one each day?

VIPStephan
07-28-2009, 09:27 AM
Don’t you have the power to split or merge threads? This way you could merge all MS related stuff by drhoarddrfine into one “MS bin”. :D

drhowarddrfine
07-28-2009, 11:38 AM
I just respond to all the stupid pro-MS stuff or anything that falsely puts MS into a positive light. So if you put it in another place, you guys wouldn't know what was really going on.

gnomeontherun
07-28-2009, 12:58 PM
I was suggesting that you just use the same thread for all of your news, rather than a new one constantly.

I'm just tired of seeing new threads about it all the time, in fact I almost entirely avoid this part of the forum now because of it.

Apostropartheid
07-28-2009, 02:52 PM
Ahahaha, that made me laugh. Can we call it "The Doctor's thread of DOOM"?
(Or, well, MS, but I think my idea is better.)

drhowarddrfine
07-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Interesting. The news I post here is usually from ArsTechnica or things I pick up on reddit or hacker news. Sometimes CNET. I guess those are bad sources for such information?

Jeremy says he avoids this section because of the things I post but, Jeremy, are you just deciding you prefer to be in the dark? Or do you prefer to only read pro-Microsoft news?

Apostropartheid
07-28-2009, 04:33 PM
I think what Jeremy is saying is that he'd rather not read anti-MS news every time.

gnomeontherun
07-28-2009, 04:54 PM
Interesting. The news I post here is usually from ArsTechnica or things I pick up on reddit or hacker news. Sometimes CNET. I guess those are bad sources for such information?

Jeremy says he avoids this section because of the things I post but, Jeremy, are you just deciding you prefer to be in the dark? Or do you prefer to only read pro-Microsoft news?

Its because everything that you say has such a sarcastic edge and is largely belittling, as if I don't agree with you I'm 11 years behind web standards.

I believe another thread I pointed out the entirely one sided nature of your posts, and you completely dismiss anything that doesn't make them look bad. Those are my problems.

TheShaner
07-28-2009, 04:58 PM
Interesting. The news I post here is usually from ArsTechnica or things I pick up on reddit or hacker news. Sometimes CNET. I guess those are bad sources for such information?
Please infer a little more intelligently next time. He's referring to subject-wise. It has nothing to do with the sources. Whether you grab your articles from ArsTechnica or the tabloids, you are fairly consistent in posting any article that defames and/or mocks MS. It gets tiresome and annoying to read the same crap (I'm sorry... truth!) about MS. If you're going to continue to make this forum one of your outlets, at least provide some variety on subjects and tech news.


Jeremy says he avoids this section because of the things I post but, Jeremy, are you just deciding you prefer to be in the dark? Or do you prefer to only read pro-Microsoft news?
DrHoward, are you really so blind as to not see that we all here are tired of seeing the same quips, quotes, and anti-MS-related news from you?! If you're as intelligent as you proudly like to think you are, attempt for a minute to really see the cynicism, sarcasm, and annoyance lathed throughout anyone's subsequent posts to your drivel. Jeremy, like others, have a hard time visiting this forum, because you're like a dooms-day religious zealot that preaches fire and brimstone to the masses. We don't want to hear about the devil anymore. We get it. If you've ever been annoyed once in your life by any kind of fanatic advocate of any type that harangued about the misdeeds of such and such, then you should be able to understand our resentment toward your incessant anti-MS posts.

Preach elsewhere or give us a break for a bit. At least your link to an old Looney Tune episode gave you a little character and personality rather than this image of some bitter, resentful man who acts as if Bill Gates dumped him for another man. (I joke, but you get the idea :p )

-Shane

BoldUlysses
07-28-2009, 05:04 PM
It gets tiresome and annoying to read the same crap about MS.

This.


We get it.

And this.

I think what the folks on here are lobbying for is simply the consolidation of all your threads which carry the same anti-MS theme into one. On the upside, it would be easier to search for a specific link or tidbit if we needed it.

drhowarddrfine
07-28-2009, 06:00 PM
Just trying to balance the internet since most only see things from one side and ignore the other.

Apostropartheid
07-28-2009, 06:04 PM
But drdr, we're currently only seeing it from your view. I understand your, um, drive, but a consolidated thread would allow new people to view your news, whilst those who do not wish to can simply ignore it. We could probably organize a sticky.

oracleguy
07-28-2009, 06:21 PM
But drdr, we're currently only seeing it from your view. I understand your, um, drive, but a consolidated thread would allow new people to view your news, whilst those who do not wish to can simply ignore it. We could probably organize a sticky.

That and/or provide more variety in the subject matter. Instead of sticking with only anti-Microsoft articles, include news that is interesting about other companies and products. Like the thing is going on this week about the serious flash exploit, that is something that we'd all find interesting and it would be information people around here should be aware of.

TheShaner
07-28-2009, 06:47 PM
Just trying to balance the internet since most only see things from one side and ignore the other.
I think most active members here understand the ineptness of Internet Explorer. You're essentially preaching to the choir.

But even going past the subject of your posts, it's also the way in which you conduct yourself in your replies to yours and others' posts. Like I said before, I don't know anything about the MS anti-trust suit. But instead of a polite and respectful reply stating how since Apple does not dominate the desktop market and thus does not violate any anti-trust law, the company is still free to bundle it's own browser with its desktop; you started off with a question that implied you're a bit incredulous of my ignorance to the subject, thus belittling me for my lack knowledge. It's all about how you come across, and frankly, in almost every post, you are disrespectful with your haughty attitude and demeaning responses to those with any kind of opposing view.


Like the thing is going on this week about the serious flash exploit, that is something that we'd all find interesting and it would be information people around here should be aware of.
Post a link. Geez. :p

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=1189

-Shane

drhowarddrfine
07-28-2009, 07:49 PM
But drdr, we're currently only seeing it from your view. I understand your, um, drive, but a consolidated thread would allow new people to view your news, whilst those who do not wish to can simply ignore it. We could probably organize a sticky.
So I'd get my own personal blog! I like that!:thumbsup:

drhowarddrfine
07-28-2009, 07:55 PM
you started off with a question that implied you're a bit incredulous of my ignorance to the subject, thus belittling me for my lack knowledge.Without looking back at it, I think I might have been replying to someone else. If not, I may have thought you had already stated your objections elsewhere and thought you were digging up the same argument. Don't recall.
It's all about how you come across, and frankly, in almost every post, you are disrespectful with your haughty attitude and demeaning responses to those with any kind of opposing view.
An opposing view for the sake of opposing? That gets old quick. You see "opposing views" on a lot of forums from people who don't know better but, if I am truly preaching to the choir, why all the back talk? It's really frustrating arguing with people who say they agree with you yet argue that you're wrong, or worse, should keep your mouth shut. If you argue with me then I can only assume you disagree. That's confusing.

Hexagram
07-28-2009, 08:30 PM
Lets be honest here, I'd say most of us on this forum have more than one browser installed. So the option on Windows 7 to choose which browser to install initially is pointless for us.

gnomeontherun
07-28-2009, 08:38 PM
You see "opposing views" on a lot of forums from people who don't know better but, if I am truly preaching to the choir, why all the back talk? It's really frustrating arguing with people who say they agree with you yet argue that you're wrong, or worse, should keep your mouth shut. If you argue with me then I can only assume you disagree.

You don't get it. Nobody is back talking about your articles, we are talking about you. The problem is not the topic as much as it is your style of presentation and rhetoric. Why can't someone agree with you on 4 out of 5 points and not be turned into a devil? You seem to focus on that last point and ignore all of the things people agree on. Assuming someone disagrees is the same as assuming you are better than others. You always assume what you say is true or right, or that people are attacking some 'truth', but just because its published somewhere online doesn't make it true or infallible. Seriously, since when does everyone believe everything they read?

Its your style of rhetoric that makes people give up discussing. You are not saying it directly, but your rhetoric is saying that if someone doesn't agree with you (or worse, if they contribute something that you don't like) that they should keep their mouth shut. You are doing the exact thing that you claim to be preventing. Why else would I try to ignore these posts? Because its better for me to avoid them to engage in this conversation, so congratulations, you drug me in one last time. I am tired of my comments being twisted. I just suggested that you make one thread for all of these similar types of posts, and then you accuse me of wanting to live in the dark of computer news. If you really want people to respect you and what you have to say, then get off your high horse, let people say what they want, and you don't have to agree but RESPECT them for having an opinion.

I shall retire now.

VIPStephan
07-28-2009, 09:57 PM
I shall retire now.

Hopefully only from this thread, and not entirely?

TheShaner
07-28-2009, 10:07 PM
An opposing view for the sake of opposing? That gets old quick. You see "opposing views" on a lot of forums from people who don't know better but, if I am truly preaching to the choir, why all the back talk? It's really frustrating arguing with people who say they agree with you yet argue that you're wrong, or worse, should keep your mouth shut. If you argue with me then I can only assume you disagree. That's confusing.
Why does someone having an opposing view instantly become the target of insults and belittling from atop your superiority complex? Whatever happened to respecting someone's viewpoint whether you agree with them or not? And back talk? The only back talk you're getting is from people fed up with your disrespectful mouth. I can't gauge whether your reading comprehension is at an elementary level, or your pompous mind can't handle that everyone here can't stand you and how you back talk us.

Take this thread for example. You weren't polite to me. Your next post following OG's questions were completely disrespectful, suggesting that they're "silly statements", acting as if we're completely and utterly ignorant of everything, and saying that you don't have time to get into an argument about it, as if it was an argument to begin with (which you ironically turned it into). Learn to debate intelligently, logically, and most importantly, respectfully.

Unfortunately, everything we've said here will fall on deaf ears, because your pride rules your personality. You see everyone here as inferior according to some elitism you hold yourself to and treat them as so. It's not appreciated.


Hopefully only from this thread, and not entirely?
You've caught him in a paradox now, lol. He can't respond to this thread to tell you that he's retired from the thread. Based on his response though, I'm sure it's only this thread. Isn't that right, Jeremy? (wait, don't answer that! :p)

-Shane

Apostropartheid
07-29-2009, 12:11 AM
Isn't that right, Jeremy? (wait, don't answer that! :p)

-Shane

It's Gnomey, now. GNOMEY.

drhowarddrfine
07-29-2009, 12:14 AM
Nobody is back talking about your articles, we are talking about you.I notice this on certain forums. Rather than discuss the topic, they attack the poster. I see this here sometimes, like right now, while other places it becomes an interesting discussion but who posts the subject is never brought up. Questions are asked and links are supplied to support one side or the other but, again, no one goes after the poster first as happens so often here and elsewhere (mostly Windows forums).

It's interesting how things so quickly go to challenging me rather than talking about the subject. While shaner says he asked a question, he's challenged me on this before. I don't believe anyone else has done anything but challenge me but not discussed the topic.

Somehow, I'm to blame. It's my fault.


If you really want people to respect you and what you have to say, then get off your high horse, let people say what they want, and you don't have to agree but RESPECT them for having an opinion.

So quit attacking me. I'm not looking for respect. I'm trying to fix people's wrong-sided thinking and exposing them to news and information they aren't aware of. It's amazing the amount of mis-information Microsfties gobble up. I just left a thread where someone just insisted the video tag was removed from HTML5, despite me showing him the link to where it is in the spec. Then another guy jumped in calling me a Microsoft hater. It's now 19 posts long and no one has said anything about the topic at hand.

That's how I feel this board is like when it comes to Microsoft topics. You're too sensitive to seeing anything negative about it so you try and banish it from site rather than face up to it, or just plain go away.

I just reminded myself of why I left this board several years ago. Back then, I questioned whether IE was a good browser and thought we should all switch to Firefox. People laughed then and told me I should hit the road. So I did. Today, I've been proven right but the topic landscape is changing and you probably wish I would hit the road again instead of listening and learning.

meh. whatever.

drhowarddrfine
07-29-2009, 12:18 AM
Why does someone having an opposing view instantly become the target of insults and belittling from atop your superiority complex?It happens all the time. I'm not used to people talking nice when Microsoft is brought up. They immediately get defensive.


Unfortunately, everything we've said here will fall on deaf ears, because your pride rules your personality. You see everyone here as inferior according to some elitism you hold yourself to and treat them as so.

When you're good, you're good. I'm proud of that and I don't need to defend it.

oracleguy
07-29-2009, 12:57 AM
I notice this on certain forums. Rather than discuss the topic, they attack the poster. I see this here sometimes, like right now, while other places it becomes an interesting discussion but who posts the subject is never brought up. Questions are asked and links are supplied to support one side or the other but, again, no one goes after the poster first as happens so often here and elsewhere (mostly Windows forums).

It's interesting how things so quickly go to challenging me rather than talking about the subject. While shaner says he asked a question, he's challenged me on this before. I don't believe anyone else has done anything but challenge me but not discussed the topic.

Somehow, I'm to blame. It's my fault.



So quit attacking me. I'm not looking for respect. I'm trying to fix people's wrong-sided thinking and exposing them to news and information they aren't aware of. It's amazing the amount of mis-information Microsfties gobble up. I just left a thread where someone just insisted the video tag was removed from HTML5, despite me showing him the link to where it is in the spec. Then another guy jumped in calling me a Microsoft hater. It's now 19 posts long and no one has said anything about the topic at hand.

That's how I feel this board is like when it comes to Microsoft topics. You're too sensitive to seeing anything negative about it so you try and banish it from site rather than face up to it, or just plain go away.

Myself and others in this thread were asking legitimate questions, I was genuinely curious, I wasn't personally attacking you. You said that Apple didn't need to distribute more than just their browser with their OS because it follows standards and is cross platform. So I asked what if Microsoft made IE the same way so that it stuck to web standards and ran on more than just windows and you ignored me. You just recited the same rhetoric about IE not following standards.

bazz talked about how IE's annoying ability to guess at what the user is trying to do can make it easier to get it done faster (because bad code can work like good code) and coding to support all browsers can appear to cost more. We know as web developers, working with the standards will get you all the browsers with less overall work when compared to writing for IE and then the other browsers. But management might not.

And then his very real point about how since browsers themselves don't bring income, computers should come with all the browsers. Then you just dismiss it as "irrelevant" without any reason. His point actually makes a lot of sense. If the choice is there for people, no one company can leverage their market position to make their browser the only browser. Which I believe, is what you don't like about IE. So I would imagine that you'd want this.

If you are going to post news stories, I assume it is because it is

Relevant to the members here
An interesting topic for a discussion


If you don't want a discussion, don't post it.


I just reminded myself of why I left this board several years ago. Back then, I questioned whether IE was a good browser and thought we should all switch to Firefox. People laughed then and told me I should hit the road. So I did. Today, I've been proven right but the topic landscape is changing and you probably wish I would hit the road again instead of listening and learning.

I'm pretty sure, in fact I know, back in 2003 and 2004 people around here were in support of Firefox (http://www.codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=26907) and people were a believer in web standards (http://codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=23475).

Post the thread where people told you to hit the road, I want to see who said that.

VIPStephan
07-29-2009, 01:02 AM
The thing is: The subject has been discussed before you started pushing buttons (again) just because people questioned your beliefs. If oracleguy is asking if Apple shouldn’t be held to the same standard there’s no reason to allege that he hasn’t understood anything:

If you think all that happened was Microsoft was just sitting around, selling their product and then one day, boom, they were in trouble, then you have no understand of the issues at hand and haven't read anything of all the published court papers freely available on the internet.
… no reason for such comments. All he did was question the gospel you praise all day. And repeatingly posting articles about MS that show their weaknesses – even without a comment – is kind of imposing an opinion on people here and it’s becoming annoying after a while.

Nobody is trying to put you down automatically or for the fun of it. If somebody is bringing in a refutation then this isn’t aimed at your personality. But somehow you always manage to get hold of the wrong end of the stick and you’re doing everything that people that regularly discuss with you (at least on these forums) start to hate you because you don’t contribute to a discussion in a constructive manner.

I’m sure we’re all curious about the latest developments at Microsoft but you don’t have to have a rock solid answer to every question. And if somebody is asking something you don’t know for sure (like if Apple shouldn’t be held to the same standards) then we’re not laughing at you if you say you don’t know. And also you don’t have to jump in on every simple rhethorical question. Geez, you’re like a christian fundamentalist that insists that everybody that dares to question your beliefs is wrong and should burn in hell (and does everything that this happens). Take it easy, man. Questions here are usually aimed at the subject, not at you personally.

ohgod
07-29-2009, 01:57 PM
apparently this is going to be unpopular of me, but i actually get a little laugh out of drdr's posts. it usually gives me something to read.

and no matter how one sided and biased the arguments might be, it's still less one sided and biased than the average news article... so i guess i'm more forgiving in that light.

anyway, you could just give him a subforum for bashing ms. he generates enough content to justify it (more than the coldfusion forum :o ) and then people who don't want to read the one sided bashing don't have to.


as for all these so called personal attacks: i'd like to remind you that you're on the internet. if you can't laugh at this stuff then i just don't know...

oh yeah, my dad can beat up your dad

drhowarddrfine
07-29-2009, 02:28 PM
Trying to get back on the subject, here is a proposed ballot (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/eu-vista-xp-users-will-also-get-to-vote-ie-off-the-island.ars) for choosing the browser you want from Microsoft.

TheShaner
07-29-2009, 02:38 PM
as for all these so called personal attacks: i'd like to remind you that you're on the internet. if you can't laugh at this stuff then i just don't know...
Thanks. I think we needed to be reminded of that :p


Trying to get back on the subject, here is a proposed ballot (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/eu-vista-xp-users-will-also-get-to-vote-ie-off-the-island.ars) for choosing the browser you want from Microsoft.
I'm surprised MS has gone that far with the ballot screen. That's certainly more than what I was expecting. I do like how IE 8's links are highlighted; a nice subliminal hint, haha.

-Shane

VIPStephan
07-29-2009, 02:41 PM
Trying to get back on the subject, here is a proposed ballot (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/eu-vista-xp-users-will-also-get-to-vote-ie-off-the-island.ars) for choosing the browser you want from Microsoft.

Sound pretty good so far. I like this:

The ballot screen will include the most widely used Windows browsers with a usage share of at least 0.5 percent [Ö]

This may even bring yet more variety into the browser market.
Iím kinda feeling sorry about the rest of the world thatís not benefiting from these regulations.

Fumigator
07-29-2009, 03:28 PM
Iím kinda feeling sorry about the rest of the world thatís not benefiting from these regulations

We'll survive somehow. Though the gov't here in the U.S. seems hellbent on becoming our mommies too, so we may soon be "benefiting" like you :p :(

drhowarddrfine
07-29-2009, 05:20 PM
I was surprised they allowed a "plug" for their browser. Perhaps they offered them all a chance to do a one-liner to be included but I thought it would be a simple list of radio buttons to select.

Apostropartheid
07-29-2009, 05:35 PM
It does sound good, but remember that OEMs are allowed to bypass the ballots and preinstall browsers. This could possibly still be IE of their own accord (though it's a pretty good opportunity for FOSS browsers to make deals with them.) Ten browsers seems too much, though.

MattF
07-29-2009, 06:23 PM
I was surprised they allowed a "plug" for their browser. Perhaps they offered them all a chance to do a one-liner to be included but I thought it would be a simple list of radio buttons to select.

A plug as in providing descriptions? If so, that makes perfect sense. At the end of the day, there will be quite a few people out there who haven't got the faintest idea what the whole thing is about. In all honesty, some people may not even have the faintest idea what the browser actually is or does, so to speak, ne'er mind the fact that there are alternatives.

Zangeel
07-30-2009, 11:07 AM
Microsoft is just being stubborn now


Firefox and Chrome have more support for emerging standards like HTML5 and CSS3, but Internet Explorer 8 invested heavily in having world-class, consistent support for the entire CSS2.1 specification.

Orly?

drhowarddrfine
07-30-2009, 03:19 PM
Pretty much. (http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/ie8.html)

bazz
07-30-2009, 03:37 PM
In all honesty, some people may not even have the faintest idea what the browser actually is or does, so to speak, ne'er mind the fact that there are alternatives.

Spot on!!

We need to remind ourselves that M$ is only trying to find a way to keep its browser dominant without being clobbered again for anti-trust issues. It is not trying to redress some imbalance.

so I think their plan is: -

1. understand that users like it all simple. M$ made pc usage simple so they expect it to be so.
2. let's show a choice to get around the anti-trust thing.
3. make the choice difficult by offering too much, which will take so-o-o-o much time to research the details of each browser.
3. position M$ browser install links highlighted on the key parts of the page, (or otherwise submininally outstanding), so more novices just click the easy option - sticking wiht what they know/what is familiar.
4. And just for those who don't ike change, either at all or, when they don't understand why they need it, they will be channelled into sticking with M$.

This is an improvement. I don't think it is realistic for their domination to be replaced with a totally level playing field from now on. Competition will decide whose browser is to be used - customer choice - and it will likely become that other browsers will ship with plug-in/add-on software to keep asking the person if they want to try out a new better browser. Unless M$ has contracts with smaller software manufacturers to prevent them from doing this (a whole new anti-trust issue), it is an option for those like Firefox/opera/safari etc.

Doing it this way is the next best thing to putting all browsers into the windows install and letting customer choice happen then. That is what should happen except that the growth of a move by millions, to any other browser will increase exponentially and render (sorry for the pun), ie redundant unless M$ invests in it more.

bazz

Apostropartheid
07-30-2009, 04:59 PM
I'd be strongly against putting all browsers in an install. I have enough bloatware as it is from an OEM, let alone in-built stuff.

bazz
07-30-2009, 07:00 PM
I have enough bloatware as it is from an OEM, let alone in-built stuff.

lol. and we could make a thread on that subject that would make this one a tiddler. :D



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