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View Full Version : Windows 7 to come without IE in Europe.



Kristofa
06-15-2009, 04:27 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8096701.stm

They've been nailed for anti-competition, so Windows 7 will not come with IE. (Although there will be a built in downloader...suggesting lots of people will still have IE...)

Here starts the downfall of IE?!?

Apostropartheid
06-15-2009, 04:48 PM
Except probably not. It's unlikely that even techies will go to the lengths of actually going to another computer and downloading an alternate browser (especially if you don't have one about). At least it's completely removable from the OS, but if the EU seriously wanted this to work, other browsers would have to be bundled. I don't see that as the optimal solution either, though. Pity.

drhowarddrfine
06-15-2009, 05:51 PM
To be clear, this was Microsoft's solution and they did this on their own. The EC did not suggest this.

VIPStephan
06-15-2009, 06:02 PM
Yeah, and I’ve read that maybe in future releases there will be a number of browsers available by default because how would you download a browser software without an internet browser? :D Something has to be there for the average luser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luser) because they probably won’t know how to use a command line tool.

Or maybe there will be a program that asks during installation or first launch which browser they want to install and then downloads it accordingly? (that’s just an idea from my personal mind)

Apostropartheid
06-15-2009, 06:09 PM
That would probably be nice, but the way I see it happening now is a link on the user's desktop to download IE and Windows will do it itself--much like Live Essentials as a separate download. I doubt this will make an appearance in the US, though.

bazz
06-15-2009, 06:38 PM
To be clear, this was Microsoft's solution and they did this on their own. The EC did not suggest this.

Oh pulleeze. Microsoft did this onlky because they were fined for having IE inbuilt with windows. It was caused by the pressure applied by the EC. This is a quote.



"We're committed to making Windows 7 available in Europe at the same time that it launches in the rest of the world," Dave Heiner, Microsoft deputy general counsel, said in a statement, "but we also must comply with European competition law as we launch the product.

"We believe that this new approach, while not our first choice, is the best path forward given the ongoing legal case in Europe."


I believe the EC cannot be allowed to dictate to individual businesses but they can influence the maket/playing field. They have made M$ adopt a different approach, which is not M$'s first choice.

I am pleased too, that they are being monitored still, to make sure that anything else M$ does, does not negate this step forward or otherwise abuse their market position.

Obviously an ongoing situation but, it will, likely, result in more choice for the consumer and better products. I am still slightly confused though, as to why there is so much browser warring, given that they are free.

why not adopt one or perhaps two - say ff and safari and pool resources to create an industry-powered response to the security issues that prevail?

ny 2c

bazz

drhowarddrfine
06-15-2009, 11:29 PM
Oh pulleeze. Microsoft did this onlky because they were fined for having IE inbuilt with windows. It was caused by the pressure applied by the EC.You misunderstand me. Microsoft had to take some sort of action, yes, but the EC brought up several ideas for compliance, and sent a questionnaire of sorts around for other suggestions. What Microsoft did was not on the EU list and one EU commissioner was quoted as saying what Microsoft did was not something the EU had even thought of.


They have made M$ adopt a different approach, which is not M$'s first choice. As said, it WAS Microsoft's first choice and the EU never suggested this one.


why not adopt one or perhaps two - say ff and safari and pool resources to create an industry-powered response to the security issues that prevail?

Questionnaires have been sent out looking for suggestions. I don't see why there can't be a multiple choice of something less than 10 browsers upon OS installation. Then some little program goes out and grabs/installs the browser.

You do NOT need a browser to download or install any program. Browsers, themselves, work through sockets and tcp/ip and such themselves so any program can do the same.

bazz
06-15-2009, 11:39 PM
Your are disputing a quote from microsoft themselves. Whether it was microsofts first choice or not, has nothing to do with whether the EU sugegsted it. Out of curiosity; are you affiliated to microsoft or just strong in your belief that they are brilliant?

;)
bazz

drhowarddrfine
06-16-2009, 01:55 AM
bazz,

I still don't get where you're coming from. Where do you get the idea I support Microsoft in any way? Start with the links in my sig. I was a major thorn in Chris Wilson's side for a while (He was the lead developer of IE till he quit recently. I hope I had something to do with that.) I consider what Microsoft did with IE a flip of the middle finger at the EU and they just may pay another hefty fine for that.

So why you think I have any admiration for MS, I don't have a clue.

VIPStephan
06-16-2009, 09:54 AM
I, too, read that it was Microsoft’s decision on how they would deliver Windows. It is indisputable that the EU made some restrictions but they didn’t say how MS should overcome the issue of browser choice. So MS, lacking much time due to a soon release, decided that for now they would just deliver Windows without IE preinstalled but not yet with an option to choose from different browsers. At least, a step in the right direction.

bazz
06-16-2009, 10:48 AM
I suppose we are disagreeing about something very trivial/specific and which has nothing to do with the reality that M$ has dropped the inclusion of IE.

@drhowarddrfine: The tone of what I wrote didn't come through in this text medium. I have read you are no big fan of m$ so that was meant to be tongue in cheek.

@VIPStephan: OK, so it may have been Microsoft's decision as to how they would do it but the EU left them with almost no room for manoevre so really what other decision could they have made?

bazz

drhowarddrfine
06-16-2009, 01:33 PM
OK, so it may have been Microsoft's decision as to how they would do it but the EU left them with almost no room for manoevre so really what other decision could they have made?

bazz

As I said, there were a number of ideas floated about and more were coming from a survey being sent around by the EU.

TheShaner
06-16-2009, 02:53 PM
I was a major thorn in Chris Wilson's side for a while (He was the lead developer of IE till he quit recently. I hope I had something to do with that.)
Are you on the W3C board? Some sort of web standards committee at all? Or anything that would equate to being able to directly influence and/or put pressure on a lead browser developer besides being an annoying commenter on developers' blogs? In all seriousness, are you in any way a respected authoring or development figure in web technologies to garner the attention of the names you oh so love to throw around? If so, please by all means let us know who you really are so that we can appropriately offer a little more respect toward your anti-MS, name throwing, superfluous remarks. And I mean all that in the kindest of ways ;)

-Shane

Fumigator
06-16-2009, 03:48 PM
Are you on the W3C board? Some sort of web standards committee at all? Or anything that would equate to being able to directly influence and/or put pressure on a lead browser developer besides being an annoying commenter on developers' blogs? In all seriousness, are you in any way a respected authoring or development figure in web technologies to garner the attention of the names you oh so love to throw around? If so, please by all means let us know who you really are so that we can appropriately offer a little more respect toward your anti-MS, name throwing, superfluous remarks. And I mean all that in the kindest of ways ;)

-Shane

Can you really believe drdr would have been able to keep such credentials to himself for this long? :p

drhowarddrfine
06-16-2009, 04:25 PM
Are you on the W3C board? Some sort of web standards committee at all?Nope.
In all seriousness, are you in any way a respected authoring or development figure in web technologies to garner the attention of the names you oh so love to throw around?Let's say I'm known.
If so, please by all means let us know who you really are so that we can appropriately offer a little more respect toward your anti-MS, name throwing, superfluous remarks. And I mean all that in the kindest of ways ;)

-Shane

Nope. Will never do that. The closest someone came to my true identity is I accidentally let on what my real first name is somewhere.

I am not anti-MS, really. I'm anti bad software. Anti-MS remarks only came about from past experiences. I only came to the web business something less than 5 years ago. A relative is a Windows coder for a medium-size company and sold me on using IIS, Visual Studio and all that to develop a web app. I became incredibly frustrated with what I could/couldn't do and then .NET happened changing everything I spent a year working on. Switched to FreeBSD and got the app up and running in 3 months.

So that left a bad taste in my mouth. Then I had to start working with IE cause it's the dominant browser, right? Everyone codes to IE, right? It comes from Microsoft so Microsoft follows the standards, right?

I went to a few forums (including this one, I believe) asking questions like "How come this doesn't work right?". A handful started showing me I was coding it right but the problem was IE. Everything I wrote worked in other browsers but not IE. It took me a while to figure out that maybe Microsoft products were the problem and not me and everything else.

So when I started questioning IEs abilities, you would (then) get a swarm of people who would call you an idiot for using Firefox or Opera. "Do what Microsoft tells you and ignore the rest!" was the common response. I'd be kicked through the mud and laughed at constantly (still happens today). Almost 4 years ago I had the audacity to say I thought IE wouldn't have 95% market penetration and would become just one of the crowd within 5 years. Oh, the howls of laughter I endured.

Regarding the names I banter about, I talk to these people frequently using my real name. If you tried hard enough, you could figure it out. On another forum, there's one guy who actually keeps a running list of things I've said attempting to figure out who I am.

I'm not trying to say I'm someone you would all know. I'm just saying that I have a background. Yes, I ate lunch regularly with Jim Clark. Yes Molly and I once had a screamfest and I made her cry. And, yes, Wilson knows me by name. As long as I'm rambling, my real name is in the credits of a few Hollywood movies and you can see my face in two of them.

Blah, blah, blah.

I don't come here, or the other places, for credit. I come to help make my job easier by getting people to dump IE and to help people figure things out. I don't have to work. I do but now limit myself to things I feel like doing and not because I have to. I don't owe anybody anything except a small mortgage payment on one of my two homes and have a large income from several restaurants I own.

Just over the last two weeks I've been thinking of "retiring". I'm only in my 50s, and could have done this 10 years ago, but thought I'd be bored. Now that it seems people are heading the right way with my stated goal (dump IE), it's gotten all a little boring. But I do get excited with all the new stuff getting built into browsers and, with IE slowly dying, the ability to actually use stuff that's been around for decades but couldn't because of IE. Perhaps that's why I won't quit yet.

Or not. I'm just typing out loud.

btw, somewhat related. When I was much younger and in the radio/TV business, I worked with a 150-year old country/western disk jockey, Skeets Yaney, who would play a song by, say Johnny Cash or Chet Atkins, and, when it finished, would say "That's my good, good buddy Johnny Cash!" and we would look at each other like "Yeah, you really know him you old fart". Or he'd get off the phone and say "I was just talking' to my good, good buddy ..." and we'd vomit a little.

Until, one late night, I was bored to tears and the front door rang. I was the one who buzzed people in:

Me: Who is it?
Voice on intercom: I'm here to see Skeets.
Me: OK. (buzz)

I'm so bored I'm dying. Takes forever for this guy to come up to the second floor. Finally, a shadow fills the hallway and I turn to look into the eyes of Jimmy Dean! My mouth fell to the floor.

(Later)
Me: You really know Jimmy Dean?
Skeets: Oh, yeah. Me and him go way back.
Me: And Johnny Cash and all those people?!

(Next day in the front office)
Me: Jimmy Dean was here last night! Did you know Skeets really knows all those people?!
Office staff: Oh, yeah. Skeets and them go way back.

A few months later, we learned Skeets was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. Turns out, he had a national radio program on CBS at one time. My (then) girlfriend's parents even knew who he was. I was floored.

Which goes to show you, you never now who you're going to meet....I guess.

What time is it?

Fumigator
06-16-2009, 05:11 PM
Drdr that post was by far the best post I've ever read from you, in all sincerity. And now that you've outed yourself for your true identity, MR. STEVE MARTIN, we can get on with it!

p.s. I love your Banjo playing, it really is a kick to see you perform.

Apostropartheid
06-16-2009, 05:20 PM
Yes, truly it was. Good reading. You're not Steve Martin, though, because that would make you in your 60s. Maybe this could be the real version of Name That Coder.

'Tis pity, that you behave so malevolently towards MS. I respect you for who you are: you're clever, you certainly know a lot more about web development than I could claim, and you can write posts like that. All that goes to waste, though, when you act like a zealot. It's that, the reason why I might not take you seriously, it's that which makes me skip over your posts at times.

All the best.

drhowarddrfine
06-16-2009, 07:42 PM
'Tis pity, that you behave so malevolently towards MS.Sometimes it only sounds that way because I go to forums as a break between coding periods and just blurt things out in a hurry. Certain things hit my buttons, especially if I know some of the background "goings on" at MS that I categorize as "dirty tricks". All big companies do them to some extent. It's part of the competitive edginess people of that ilk have.

I used to take more time and be more thoughtful but, until just this past Friday, I was really pushing a big project out the door. Right now, I got nuttin'.

I respect you for who you areThank you. Despite my achievements, I always feel the need to hear that from someone once in a while. You'd be surprised how many great people just wish for a hug.

It's that, the reason why I might not take you seriously, it's that which makes me skip over your posts at times.You shouldn't. Sometimes I have moments of brilliance. :D You just have to read between the snorts and "you're an idiot" pauses. Of course, that's why I quit being a mod elsewhere.

I used to teach electronics part-time. When I quit, my class of 120 bought me a flask of some expensive whiskey as a going away present. I guess that means I'm not that bad a guy, huh? Or at least I can teach? :)

TheShaner
06-16-2009, 08:08 PM
Nope. Will never do that. The closest someone came to my true identity is I accidentally let on what my real first name is somewhere.
Whoa, close one Superm.. I mean... Clark Kent :rolleyes:



Yes, I ate lunch regularly with Jim Clark. Yes Molly and I once had a screamfest and I made her cry. And, yes, Wilson knows me by name.
Talk about odd things to own up to :eek:



I don't come here, or the other places, for credit. I come to help make my job easier by getting people to dump IE and to help people figure things out.
...
Now that it seems people are heading the right way with my stated goal (dump IE), it's gotten all a little boring.
You see, I'm a firm believer in logic and rationale. Logically, a more credible source delivers a more persuasive argument. So a rational person who's sole motivation is to persuade those around him/her to "dump IE" would use his/her's clout, spurred by their credibility as a person in or relating to their argument, to further their cause. The blatant name tossing, smug quips, and zealotry lathed within your posts do nothing for that cause without credibility; they just become empty words from another anonymous poster online. If you value your anonymity, then those techniques have no effect and are better left unsaid. But if you want all that to mean something, you're going to have to give some sort of backing to your brashness. A mysterious semi-bio does none of that.



btw, somewhat related. When I was much younger and in the radio/TV business, I worked with a 150-year old country/western disk jockey, Skeets Yaney,
...
A few months later, we learned Skeets was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. Turns out, he had a national radio program on CBS at one time. My (then) girlfriend's parents even knew who he was. I was floored.

Which goes to show you, you never now who you're going to meet....I guess.



Thank you. Despite my achievements, I always feel the need to hear that from someone once in a while. You'd be surprised how many great people just wish for a hug.
Humility goes a long way when respect is desired.

-Shane

drhowarddrfine
06-16-2009, 08:23 PM
Logically, a more credible source delivers a more persuasive argument. So a rational person who's sole motivation is to persuade those around him/her to "dump IE" would use his/her's clout, spurred by their credibility as a person in or relating to their argument, to further their cause.I can speak more freely and openly when I know customers aren't listening. I use my real name under certain circumstances. Again, it's not like my name is Steve Jobs or anything. People know me and I them but I doubt anyone on a forum would.
The blatant name tossing, smug quips, and zealotry lathed within your posts do nothing for that cause without credibility; they just become empty words from another anonymous poster online.Most anonymous users speak words but have nothing behind them. I try to always try to supply sources if needed.
If you value your anonymity, then those techniques have no effect and are better left unsaid.Only if the anonymous leave theirs unsaid. "IE is wonderful!" No it's not. Look at my links. Can't do more than that. Certain people can't be taught anything.
But if you want all that to mean something, you're going to have to give some sort of backing to your brashness. A mysterious semi-bio does none of that.
No less than the anonymous. However, look at it this way. 4 years ago you would be laughed at for using anything but IE. Now look at all the posts complaining about IE. I didn't do that all myself but I certainly didn't hurt the cause.

TheShaner
06-16-2009, 09:09 PM
I can speak more freely and openly when I know customers aren't listening. I use my real name under certain circumstances.
Now that part I can understand and completely agree.



Most anonymous users speak words but have nothing behind them. I try to always try to supply sources if needed.
You're missing the central theme of that entire paragraph though. I'm specifically referring to the name throwing, arrogance, and overzealous comments you include. It's not needed, because it does nothing for your argument but inflame and incite. Always provide lots of sources to back your claims. Great. But the other fluff takes away from it all. The moral is that if you gave yourself a name, although that fluff is still not needed, it'd at least hold some weight. But if remaining anonymous, it does nothing for your cause and is better left unsaid and untyped. So leave it out and spare us some of these -> :rolleyes: We'll hear you better without it; trust me! :thumbsup:



However, look at it this way. 4 years ago you would be laughed at for using anything but IE. Now look at all the posts complaining about IE. I didn't do that all myself but I certainly didn't hurt the cause.
I began my serious web development prior to joining these forums in September of 2005, now almost 4 years ago. I was taught from the very beginning through this forum and many other websites out there, like 456bereastreet and alistapart, to code for the likes of Firefox and Opera, but hack for IE. I was definitely never laughed at then. I'm sure many others here can attest to the fact that this has been known for more than 4 years now. I credit the CSS pioneers and other standards enthusiasts that began embracing it in the early 2000s (alistapart embraced the presentational CSS semantics in 2001, something that was not IE-friendly).

-Shane

bazz
06-16-2009, 09:59 PM
You'd be surprised how many great people just wish for a hug.

Keep wishing. You'll notice there is no hug emoticon. I snaffled them all for meeeee :D


When I quit, my class of 120 bought me a flask of some expensive whiskey as a going away present. I guess that means I'm not that bad a guy, huh? Or at least I can teach? :)

Nope. The recipient can read into that whatever they want to. :p

What it really means is that they bought you a flask. There should have been an accompanying message to say why they did it. :rolleyes: Was the seal broken? are you sure it wasn't just cold tea - or worse - recycled cold tea?! :D

In relation to who you are and whatever; it doesn't matter to me. If what someone writes sounds well thought out or constructive or is a piece contributing to a constructive argument/discussion, I can decide to evaluate their contribution.

I can corroborate it by reading other valued materials or if I am unsure of its worth I can challenge it. I suppose my point is: it matters not who says it because even if they are an 'authority', eg a magazine editor or one of the journalists, if they are good, they may have an agenda - perhaps to give a ever-so-slightly-enhanced opinion of one specific company's product.

I am still at a loss as to why the quotes in that BBC page, still have you thinking that M$ made the decision. To make a decision, you have to have the choice. They have said clearly that they have left IE out because they didn't want to risk being fined again. Had they included it, they could have been fined. Not much of a choice in my estimation.

Whether the final outcome of the litigation means that they will always leave it out is another matter. they could install it in a future windows update if the outcome is a success for them.

bazz

gsnedders
06-16-2009, 10:22 PM
http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/09/272&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en (the statement in response to MS's announcement).

From that:


As for retail sales, which amount to less than 5% of total sales, the Commission had suggested to Microsoft that consumers be provided with a choice of web browsers. Instead Microsoft has apparently decided to supply retail consumers with a version of Windows without a web browser at all. Rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less.

As for sales to computer manufacturers, Microsoft's proposal may potentially be more positive. It is noted that computer manufacturers would appear to be able to choose to install Internet Explorer – which Microsoft will supply free of charge - another browser or multiple browsers. […]

drhowarddrfine
06-17-2009, 12:44 AM
I am still at a loss as to why the quotes in that BBC page, still have you thinking that M$ made the decision.

I don't know that I even read the BBC page. Elsewhere I read an EU commissioner state they weren't happy with Microsoft's decision and what they are doing is something they had not even thought of.

drhowarddrfine
06-17-2009, 12:49 AM
This is not the story I read (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10263101-56.html) but tells you the commission did not suggest this to Microsoft:

In a statement, regulators said that the move seems a step backward in the retail software arena, but said it could be more positive in the new PC market, which is how 95 percent of consumers get a new version of Windows.

"As for retail sales, which amount to less than 5 percent of total sales, the Commission had suggested to Microsoft that consumers be provided with a choice of Web browsers," the Commission said. "Instead Microsoft has apparently decided to supply retail consumers with a version of Windows without a Web browser at all. Rather than more choice, Microsoft seems to have chosen to provide less."



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