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View Full Version : php, asp, perl or cold fusion?



hallj999
03-20-2003, 12:11 PM
which one of thses is the best server side language, and are that any features that vary from language to language, cheers hAsAaKi

pb&j
03-20-2003, 01:39 PM
so far i know about perl and php.
php is the better choice between them IMO.

krycek
03-20-2003, 02:43 PM
OK:

PHP - free, very powerful, "easy" to learn, reliable, fast, secure, works on both Windows and Linux platforms as well as others. Designed for making dynamic webpages.

ASP - Microsoft hence not free; you get it with IIS and Windows licenses but of course Linux costs nothing and is arguably "better" (well, more reliable and secure for a start!) as a server. Not as fast as PHP, although pretty secure, only works to it's full capabilities on a Windows platform, although you can get *some* of the functionality for free on Linux by using mod_asp for Apache. Stuff like Chillisoft is generally not worth looking at. ASP is also not quite as easy to learn as PHP.

Perl - Different aim to the others, Perl is not designed for writing dynamic webpages but rather is more multi-purpose. It's good at webpages but not as easy to learn or use as PHP. It is very fast, though, and secure, however not so great on a Windows platform - you're better off on Linux.

ColdFusion - kind of a one-trick pony, it seemed to have a brief spurt of popularity and then disappeared except in die-hard circles. Absolutely no reason to use it over ASP, and definitely not over PHP. Plus you need licensing etc. Medium difficulty to learn but you will have a LOT of trouble finding hosting for it, compared to the others... It's not as fast as the others, either, but it's security is OK AFAIK.

I have used all of the above - indeed, I write PHP every day, Perl every few days, and ASP when I have to! :D I have not used ColdFusion for about two years now, thankfully, although it is included with Macromedia Studio MX, I don't even bother to install it :p

So, my advice, use PHP, and possibly Perl for some stuff. Leave the other two well alone unless you've got no choice :)

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 03:28 PM
Stick with php, you are almost certainly guaranteed to get hosting that supports it, without having to pay additional costs, as you would if you used ColdFusion.

If you want to learn it quickly, head over to www.devshed.com - they have some pretty nifty tutorials there.

hallj999
03-20-2003, 04:20 PM
can i use php in a .html file, like skip between the two using <?php tags? andif i save a [age as .php can i use html in that(vice versa). hAsAaKi

krycek
03-20-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by hallj999
can i use php in a .html file, like skip between the two using <?php tags? andif i save a [age as .php can i use html in that(vice versa). hAsAaKi

that's kinda that idea, but you have to have it named as .php, not .html ;)

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 05:47 PM
@ Krycek, only if you are not using the include tag...

krycek
03-20-2003, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by ionsurge
@ Krycek, only if you are not using the include tag...

true but inadvisable. you should still name your include files as .php, for security. I tend to use .inc.php and .ini.php :)

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 06:41 PM
Haha, great idea Krycek, thanx... :)

hallj999
03-20-2003, 06:42 PM
so i can use html in a php page, cheers lads, hAsAaKi

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 06:43 PM
Yep, no problems at all whatsoever!


Have fun!


:thumbsup:

hallj999
03-20-2003, 06:45 PM
cheers for the help. while im here, i want to make a new website with my new found freind mr php. but what do you think about actually planning my website down to every last detail on paper and then implementing it, intsead of doing what i normally do and do it as i go along, hAsAaKi

krycek
03-20-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by ionsurge
Haha, great idea Krycek, thanx... :)

no worries ;)

It's just that, if you use .inc or .ini then potentially someone could type the filename into their browser and see the file contents. Bad, bad, bad! :p

Also, I just thought of this - there is nothing to prevent you putting php into a .html file and then including that, but of course that is bad practice, and not just because of security :)

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 06:46 PM
Always plan it out on paper, especially the directory structure. Then you know what you have to do, and not do anything that is not needed.


That is the best way to do things.

krycek
03-20-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by hallj999
cheers for the help. while im here, i want to make a new website with my new found freind mr php. but what do you think about actually planning my website down to every last detail on paper and then implementing it, intsead of doing what i normally do and do it as i go along, hAsAaKi

well, I tend to plan stuff in my head and then just jump right in there... whatever you do on paper, you will end up changing, so it kinda reaches a point when you are sailing along coding and the code keeps changing hourly :)

Although, that said, planning stuff like database structure is important ;) get that working on paper first otherwise you'll get stuck later :p

::] krycek [::

krycek
03-20-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by ionsurge
Always plan it out on paper, especially the directory structure. Then you know what you have to do, and not do anything that is not needed.


That is the best way to do things.

I always use the same directory structure so I tend to forget that :p

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 06:50 PM
That is a factor, as you think of more things to add. But instead of adding, just write it down at the end of the page, and then you can add it on after you have finished what you have done...

hallj999
03-20-2003, 06:51 PM
yeah i know what you mean, im just gonna plan the design and structure then and leave the coding to my imagination when im making the site, p.s seems as botyh of you are from england whats your opinion on this, im about to leave colege with a a.v.c.e in i.c.t under my belt and was wondering what you thought was the best next step, study a degree in computer science at uni, or go out there and get some experience in the industry doing i.t support and then work my way up? im confused as what will be best for me! HASAAKI

krycek
03-20-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by ionsurge
That is a factor, as you think of more things to add. But instead of adding, just write it down at the end of the page, and then you can add it on after you have finished what you have done...

Another thing... I tend to be very good with documenting my code - I always put descriptors at the start of each function, etc. and at the start of every file. I keep track of version numbers, code usage, to do lists, etc. that way.

So I guess that is my equivalent of paper, except better! :p razz :p because mine is more high-techie lol ;)

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by hallj999
study a degree in computer science at uni, or go out there and get some experience in the industry doing i.t support and then work my way up? im confused as what will be best for me! HASAAKI


Get a degree, and work voluntarily part time somewhere.

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by krycek
So I guess that is my equivalent of paper, except better! :p razz :p because mine is more high-techie lol ;)


I would do that, but I have waay to many files just to make one file... so that is out the question.


:D

hallj999
03-20-2003, 06:54 PM
cheers sounds good idea to me, crap ive missed the uni application date, looks like a lot of groveling to the admin guy at wolvo uni for me

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 06:56 PM
That is a very wise thing to do, good luck!

btw, don't ask to get paid, people don't like that... make sure it is voluntary.


:thumbsup:

krycek
03-20-2003, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by hallj999
yeah i know what you mean, im just gonna plan the design and structure then and leave the coding to my imagination when im making the site, p.s seems as botyh of you are from england whats your opinion on this, im about to leave colege with a a.v.c.e in i.c.t under my belt and was wondering what you thought was the best next step, study a degree in computer science at uni, or go out there and get some experience in the industry doing i.t support and then work my way up? im confused as what will be best for me! HASAAKI

OK, I taught AVCE ICT at a local college last year and I was not all that impressed (don't take that personally - good on you for doing it!)

My point is that whether it is AVCE ICT or a degree, education courses in IT are always out-of-date and what's more, there is no substitute for skills and experience.

I have not got a degree (I picked up 8 A-Levels, is that any good? ;)) but I went straight out after college to do freelance, and that was the best thing I ever did.

I'm only 21 now and some of my old mates are still at uni, yet I pull in a goodly sum off my freelance programming etc. and I have even lectured at a couple of unis ;)

so, although in pretty much every other career I would say "go get a degree" I would strongly advise you to start work if you have enough skills. If you feel you are not ready for that then you can choose - a degree might help you by what you would learn but so would a few months studying from home and teaching yourself. It all depends on how good you are now etc.

well whatever you do, good luck! :thumbsup:

::] krycek [::

krycek
03-20-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by ionsurge
I would do that, but I have waay to many files just to make one file... so that is out the question.


:D

one file? :confused: I do this with EVERY file :p ...and I have loads! :D

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 07:00 PM
Dude, that is exactly my point...


:p

hallj999
03-20-2003, 07:01 PM
yeah but if i want to go out and get a job , how the crap in wellingtons do you do that when you have no experience in the first place and every bloody job that you look at requires experience. and do you recomend buying a **** load of books and teaching my self stuff? HASAAKI

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 07:04 PM
That is why you get voluntary work, and let the company decide if they want to take you on after your degree.


Go to http://www.ibm.com/employment/uk/ if you want to hook up with them, they will be happy to have volunteers.

krycek
03-20-2003, 07:05 PM
just one thing - IT support is a dead-end career and personally I think you would be better off taking a few months off to study hard and learn the stuff you need to get good work :) however, if you really need a job then don't turn your nose up at it, same as, if you really want a degree, go get it :)

I was accepted at Cambridge and turning that down and forging my own road was the hardest thing I have ever done - but it was well worth it, and I was pleased to show my worried family that I had made the right decision :)

see, rather than them bailing me out because I'm broke and at uni, I was able to buy my dad a brand new bike for his birthday last year, and stuff like that kinda makes everything worth it. I'm married (over 2 years) and I live in a big new house with a nice car and I would not have any of that if I went down the traditional route.

So, I'm kinda biased but the sky really is the limit if you work hard enough :) it all depends on how good you are, and that depends upon how hard you are willing to work. I spent my first year travelling round the UK on contracts, slowly building up my portfolio etc. until I got the the place where I could work from home :) that first year was really hard but all I can say is that I am so glad I never went to uni :p

wow slightly more than I intended to write, lol! :rolleyes:

::] krycek [::

krycek
03-20-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by hallj999
yeah but if i want to go out and get a job , how the crap in wellingtons do you do that when you have no experience in the first place and every bloody job that you look at requires experience. and do you recomend buying a **** load of books and teaching my self stuff? HASAAKI

well, I live in Cornwall and there's bugger-all IT work down here :p that's why I do freelance, and it's great :cool:

however yes, you do have the problem of portfolio, and it took me ages to build mine up. And yes, teach yourself because that way you will learn. Everything I know about IT I taught myself rather than go on a course, and now I can teach the courses.

It's not easy and it's not for everyone but it depends on how much you want to earn, how quickly, and how hard you are willing to work. :)

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by krycek
IT support is a dead-end career


He is right, it is, don't go into that... steer well away from it as much as you can.


Going freelance takes a while to make up, it will be long and hard, and for a while, you will need to do things for free, and build yourself a clientbase, people who like what you do, will pay for you to do what you do.


Think about what you do carefully.

hallj999
03-20-2003, 07:09 PM
cheers lads, i sort of have a plan now, ooo and i will have one peice of experience i am making a site for a company called gradient who make insulation, got paid 500 quid for it, prob measly money to you but grand for me, so that can go down in my portfolio, but for now im just going to put all my spare time into buying books and **** and learning my self stuff, then ill see where i can go from there. HASAAKI

krycek
03-20-2003, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by ionsurge
He is right, it is, don't go into that... steer well away from it as much as you can.


Going freelance takes a while to make up, it will be long and hard, and for a while, you will need to do things for free, and build yourself a clientbase, people who like what you do, will pay for you to do what you do.


Think about what you do carefully.

Wisely spoken :thumbsup:

I tended to create sites for myself in the beginning because I couldn't find anyone interested enough ina freebie when I started out, but I know more now and I was looking in the wrong places back then ;)

Freebies are good :D

::] krycek [::

krycek
03-20-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by hallj999
cheers lads, i sort of have a plan now, ooo and i will have one peice of experience i am making a site for a company called gradient who make insulation, got paid 500 quid for it, prob measly money to you but grand for me, so that can go down in my portfolio, but for now im just going to put all my spare time into buying books and **** and learning my self stuff, then ill see where i can go from there. HASAAKI

that depends on how long it took you... I'll give you an idea:

last week I earned 660 which was on two projects but I only worked two days, and one project only took me an hour, the other took around 10 hours.

this week I have only really started work today, I have an ecommerce site to write from scratch and I will get 1k for it, it is supposed to take around 40 or 50 hours but I can do it in two days so I'm taking my time, especially as I have new servers to configure at the moment, and my hosting to concentrate on ;)

See, my contracted rate is between 20 and 30 per hour most of the time, but a standard run-of-the-mill 40-hour project I can usually do in around 10 to 20 hours, which kinda raises the level of pay. On busy weeks I do two or three such projects, and then I have quiet weeks where I take time off and go out etc.

Another good thing is that at the moment I am only doing coding, not designing, and so that speeds things up. See, an advantage I have is a massive code library that I have carefully crafted and built up myself over the years, in various languages, so that I can literally build a project like Lego a lot of the time.

The other thing is that I spent many unpaid hours developing the code in those libraries, so I guess being quicker now is paying that time back.

Until you have your own code repository etc. you will naturally have to code from scratch, but try to make things generic and re-usable, and a keyword here is "modular" ;)

So, for 500 I would tell the client 20 hours work or so, but I would expect to actually take less than 10. If I was just beginning, I would double or triple the number that I said to the client; i.e. say 20 but actually take 40 or 60. Such is life, and what you do now will help you later :)

::] krycek [::

ionsurge
03-20-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by krycek
Freebies are good :D


It is the only way to go forward, I speak from my heart when I say this.

Mind you, it applies for everything not just this topic.


Whatever you choose to do, you will need to do a lot, and work hard to get where you would like to envisage yourself, invest some money if you must, because it can all pay back.


A friend I know, a superb, and well known website designer started off knocking out freebies for loads of people, I think he made around 70 or so, and the more he done, the better and better he got.

People slowly came to him, asking him to design them stuff, so he did, at a small charge of $20 per design.

Then he began to get a lot of requests, from all over the world, via people who he knew through forums etc, he started to charge $80, and set up his own portfolio online.

Now he is huge, owns a wonderful workstation, a lovely suburbian home, and has a great car, all from his determined efforts to move forward.

You can do it, but you need the mind and soul to do it. You need to make sure that it is what you want to do. You don't want to be 26 and somewhere that you would not like to be.


Think carefully like I said, make sure you know what you want to do, you don't want to make the biggest mistake of your life. If it is however, the right choice, then the rewards can be great.


Good luck, and all the best.


:thumbsup:

krycek
03-20-2003, 07:22 PM
ionsurge, that is exactly right :) I'm not always too great at conveying my advice but you summed up everything I've been trying to say, right there :thumbsup:

Oh yeah and freebies really ARE good - I love open source stuff and as you know I try to release pretty much everything I do as open source :D hence supporting other programmers and giving back what other people have given me over the years :)

::] krycek [::

hallj999
03-20-2003, 09:54 PM
cheers for all your advice, ill have a think about it. HASAAKI



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