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View Full Version : Internet Explorer loses market share again



drhowarddrfine
01-16-2009, 06:21 PM
Internet Explorer has lost market share almost every month for the last 3 years.
Netapps (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=119).
Internet Explorer 68.15%
Firefox 21.34
Safari 7.93
Chrome 1.04
Opera 0.71
Netscape 0.57
Other 0.24

primefalcon
01-17-2009, 07:32 AM
No real surprise there, and with the antitrust abuse notice Microsoft received:

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/37419

that'll do nothing to help Microsoft either

bazz
01-17-2009, 04:03 PM
IMV, if the consumer is to have a choice, then such bundling is wrong. If the bundled software was good, it wouldn't need to be bundled - we would choose to have it.

And I also think that if we had genuine choice, browsers of all sorts would be used and they would ALL have to adopt the web standards fully and in the same spirit making the web designers job a lot easier. But that would mean IE would have to build a browser that was equal to the rest, which would require a rebuild :D (Hence the bundling, I think).


I recall a friend who was considered by many of her friends to be computer savvy. she thought that when you clicked on the aol icon to go online, that that was the (only) browser!!
She was amazed, baffled and stunned ~ all at once ~ when I showed her the IE icon and she could find many many more sites. (2003)

bazz

Millenia
01-17-2009, 04:16 PM
I recall a friend who was considered by many of her friends to be computer savvy. she thought that when you clicked on the aol icon to go online, that that was the (only) browser!!
She was amazed, baffled and stunned ~ all at once ~ when I showed her the IE icon and she could find many many more sites. (2003)

bazz

I'm sure that's what everyone thought at one time. The program was the internet :p

steverickmount
01-19-2009, 02:46 AM
I'm not so surprise too. There are so many new freeware which running faster and have so many good feature. Although I'm still using IE, I believe FF will be the market leader in the coming years.

borntoslow
01-19-2009, 12:19 PM
I don't think anyone will ever take over market share from MS, it will take a revolutionary piece of software / technology for this to happen.

As is usually the case when these things do happen, its not one of the big companies that pioneer it, normally a smaller company with a good idea, historically MS buy them out. go figure

drhowarddrfine
01-19-2009, 03:54 PM
I don't think anyone will ever take over market share from MSSince Firefox was introduced 4 years ago, IE market share has dropped from 96% to 68%. In Europe it's around 54%.

EU files antitrust charges against Microsoft over IE (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9126299&intsrc=news_ts_head)

The European Union's antitrust agency on Saturday confirmed that it has charged Microsoft with breaking the law, saying that the company "shields" Internet Explorer (IE) from "head-to-head competition" by bundling its browser with Windows.

Fumigator
01-19-2009, 05:22 PM
I hate IE as much as the next web developer, but these anti-trust issues are just silly. No one is forcing anyone to use Windows; there are a number of alternatives out there that don't bundle IE. Microsoft should be able to shape their product (Windows) in any way they want; it's the consumer who can then choose to avoid the product if it is determined to be unsatisfactory.

Too much gov't big brother intrusion. Let the market sort it out.

drhowarddrfine
01-19-2009, 05:53 PM
No one is forcing anyone to use Windows; there are a number of alternatives out there that don't bundle IE.Tell that to QuickBooks users, a number of banks and stock trading software users.
Microsoft should be able to shape their product (Windows) in any way they want; it's the consumer who can then choose to avoid the product if it is determined to be unsatisfactory.True, except when a product becomes a monopoly. There the rules are different.

Fumigator
01-19-2009, 10:27 PM
Both OSX and Linux have Windows emulators, and there are non-Windows alternatives to Quickbooks and other custom software. People still feel locked into using Windows when that is simply not the case anymore.

Now I'm not saying that the non-Windows solutions are better, or just as diverse, or just as economical, but there are non-Windows solutions, and if you or a corporation decides to use Windows based on something besides what is bundled with it, that's fine and great. Just don't claim to be a victim of a monopoly after your decision.

The worst thing to do is choose an operating system (using free will, either on a person level or a corporate level) and then complain about what is bundled with it. The more of us (along with corporations) who decide Windows is a raw deal and go with something else, the more motivation M$ will have to do things differently.

drhowarddrfine
01-19-2009, 11:51 PM
Both OSX and Linux have Windows emulatorsThe average person will not use those and who wants to install software to run software? That's making things more difficult
and there are non-Windows alternatives to QuickbooksOh? Name one that does payroll for small to medium businesses that they can afford that also interfaces to equivalent services QuickBooks offers, such as automatic withholding by state, updated annually. Tell those of us who run Tradestation software for stocks that our software runs on Linux through Wine or that there is an equivalent.


Now I'm not saying that the non-Windows solutions are better, or just as diverse, or just as economical, but there are non-Windows solutionsDoesn't sound like it.
Just don't claim to be a victim of a monopoly after your decision. That's not the definition of a monopoly.


The more of us (along with corporations) who decide Windows is a raw deal and go with something else, the more motivation M$ will have to do things differently.And there is the problem with a monopoly where you cannot go somewhere else. Microsoft has already lost this case three times in the past and are up for their fourth. Methinks there must be smoke.

oesxyl
01-20-2009, 12:03 AM
Tell that to QuickBooks users, a number of banks and stock trading software users.True, except when a product becomes a monopoly. There the rules are different.
what about "No one controls my life"?

http://www.codingforums.com/showthread.php?p=767753#post767753

what is true for ms is not true for google or others?

regards

Fumigator
01-20-2009, 01:26 AM
Whine whine whine... either use Windows or don't, I don't give a crap. I find you are arguing just to win, not to have an open exchange of ideas. You may not be aware, but breaking down someone's post into individual quotes and then rebutting each sentence one at a time is considered a form of flame, or at least incendiary in nature, giving the impression that your main focus is to go "nuh-uh" to everything said. I'm not saying don't do it, it's not my place to say that, but I find it annoying and I'll make a point of refraining from direct response to your posts in the future to avoid such posts.

p.s. Quickbooks is available in OSX and a google of "tradestation for mac" gave me several leads to alternatives.

oesxyl
01-20-2009, 01:34 AM
You may not be aware, but breaking down someone's post into individual quotes and then rebutting each sentence one at a time is considered a form of flame, or at least incendiary in nature, giving the impression that your main focus is to go "nuh-uh" to everything said.
It's a mail list habit and is usefull to answer clear to the problems/question without skipping accidentaly some points. I never see this untill now how you describe it, :)

It's like a knife, you can use it to eat or to kill depend on who use it and for what, :)

best regards

primefalcon
01-20-2009, 04:11 AM
You may not be aware, but breaking down someone's post into individual quotes and then rebutting each sentence one at a time is considered a form of flame, or at least incendiary in nature, giving the impression that your main focus is to go "nuh-uh" to everything said. I'm not saying don't do it, it's not my place to say that, but I find it annoying and I'll make a point of refraining from direct response to your posts in the future to avoid such posts.
Long Paragraph..... Anyhows that's one point I have to disagree with you on. Some people may agree with some of your points, while disagreeing with others, or just wish to point out exactly which bit they're having issues with, and doing that makes it clear what they're agreeing/disagreeing with

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 04:55 AM
what about "No one controls my life"?

http://www.codingforums.com/showthread.php?p=767753#post767753

LOL! You almost got me there. 1) It's my wife that insists on using QuickBooks and 2) I don't use Tradestation anymore.

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 05:03 AM
either use Windows or don't, I don't give a crap.Hm. Is this about you and me?
I find you are arguing just to win, not to have an open exchange of ideas.What ideas are you exchanging?
You may not be aware, but breaking down someone's post into individual quotes and then rebutting each sentence one at a time is considered a form of flameBy whom? If you are going to make several points, is no one allowed to rebut them as given?
giving the impression that your main focus is to go "nuh-uh" to everything said.Then aren't you doing the same? Is every counter to your claim flame to you?
I find it annoyingIs that the real issue? That you are trying to counter my statements but can't so you get annoyed?
I'll make a point of refraining from direct response to your posts in the future to avoid such posts.And so you're running away?


p.s. Quickbooks is available in OSXYes. "New in 2009!" as the ads now say.
a google of "tradestation for mac" gave me several leads to alternatives.I tried it and got one link to a russian web site. Tradestation is not available on anything but Windows. I was a customer of theirs for 7 years.

borntoslow
01-20-2009, 07:06 AM
Dr howard, thanks for that gave me a good chuckle.

My personal opinion on this, moving away from MS, say into the car industry. Would you expect Ford cars to be made to use Nissan parts?

I feel its kind of the same for computers and the software people use.

gnomeontherun
01-20-2009, 10:02 AM
Hm. Is this about you and me?What ideas are you exchanging?By whom? If you are going to make several points, is no one allowed to rebut them as given?Then aren't you doing the same? Is every counter to your claim flame to you?Is that the real issue? That you are trying to counter my statements but can't so you get annoyed?And so you're running away?
Yes. "New in 2009!" as the ads now say.I tried it and got one link to a russian web site. Tradestation is not available on anything but Windows. I was a customer of theirs for 7 years.

Besides the annoyances of the format, my problem with pretty much all of these posts is that there is NO PROFITABILITY from them. Sure this is the news and humor section, but I see nothing funny in these threads and most of these stats are still conjecture. Anyone who disagrees is 'refuted' and eventually turned into 'the scared poster who ran away'.

You continually claim to be rebutting, when in fact you are just implying that everything else said is unworthy and you hold the keys to the truth. It makes the people you do it to want to attack what you say, which in turn fuels the fire. Sure it can be useful, IF there was ever a sign of it being used for both positive and negative comments. I have yet to read a statement from you that gives anyone else credit for their thoughts, maybe you have, but I haven't seen it. There is no way for this discussion to go anywhere but down the toilet, and thats how you feel like a winner because if nobody is left to discuss then you win in your eyes. However I think it kind of stinks to be a 'winner' because nobody else wants to talk anymore.

If you could be welcoming to other ideas and not attempt to surgically 'refute' every comment (which might I add most of everybody's comments are opinions not fact?) then by all means post.

Otherwise, please quit posting threads about this, its getting old.

PS: I expect a rebuttal, but I've said nothing to the topic at hand so I'm not sure how it will happen!

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 02:38 PM
My personal opinion on this, moving away from MS, say into the car industry. Would you expect Ford cars to be made to use Nissan parts?

I feel its kind of the same for computers and the software people use.The difference is, you don't rely on Ford to drive on the highway. There's nothing about a Ford that makes a Nissan work equally. When you buy a Nissan, everything works everywhere.

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 02:48 PM
most of these stats are still conjecture.Conjecture implies a guess and if you follow the news and other such statistical gathering of these things you'll find they align. The "profit" is gaining the knowledge that the better browsers are gaining traction making developing for the web easier and better.
Anyone who disagrees is 'refuted' and eventually turned into 'the scared poster who ran away'.Is responding with counter arguments against the 'poster' not refuting what the poster said? Or does that work in only one direction. If you have something to say about the topic, say it, or is bashing the messenger all you can do?


You continually claim to be rebutting, when in fact you are just implying that everything else said is unworthy and you hold the keys to the truth.I invite anyone to provide evidence counter to anything I've said. No one has so far. (All this is OT, too, btw.)
I have yet to read a statement from you that gives anyone else credit for their thoughts, maybe you have, but I haven't seen it.ditto.
There is no way for this discussion to go anywhere but down the toiletWhy? Because you are complaining rather than contributing?
However I think it kind of stinks to be a 'winner' because nobody else wants to talk anymore.Like I said, if you can't counter anything, or contribute, don't reply. If you have nothing to say, and you don't, stay out of the conversation.


If you could be welcoming to other ideas and not attempt to surgically 'refute' every comment (which might I add most of everybody's comments are opinions not fact?) then by all means post.So you want opinion to top fact?


Otherwise, please quit posting threads about this, its getting old.
Should ComputerWorld, PCMagazine, Wired, CNET, etc, quit posting stories about this because it's old, too? Or do you think there are people in this world that are interested in this information and don't want to ignore it.

BoldUlysses
01-20-2009, 03:20 PM
To return to the topic at hand, how exactly does Microsoft and/or IE have a monopoly? As Fumigator said, no one is forcing anyone to use Windows or IE. A monopoly, to me, would be present if MS either made it difficult or penalized users for accessing the Internet using another browser, and to the best of my knowledge, they don't. Safari, Opera, FireFox, etc, are easy to install and work perfectly well in Windows. So the problem, then, would be lack of knowledge by the user and not suppression of competition in a monopolistic scheme. You might as well say that Apple has monopolistic intentions in bundling Safari with OSX, or any of the Linux distributions in bundling their browser of choice (Konqueror, FF, etc).

As far as Quickbooks users being forced to use Windows, this is Intuit's fault and not Microsoft's. There's bookkeeping software out there that runs just fine on other platforms. As users, we don't have the right to demand of software developers that they make their program run on any platform we choose.

The problem with your claims is that they're not falsifiable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiable). No matter how well-reasoned the counter-arguments are, you still will find a way to believe what you want to believe about the situation. One of the hallmarks of intelligent debate is the assumption, by both parties, that there is the possibility, however slight, that they may be wrong. That assumption has not manifested itself in your case and makes these discussions extremely tedious.

abduraooft
01-20-2009, 03:35 PM
Sure this is the news and humor section, but I see nothing funny in these threads... now it's getting funny... :D

effpeetee
01-20-2009, 03:41 PM
Funny - ha! ha! :D

or

Funny - peculiar?:eek:

Frank

gnomeontherun
01-20-2009, 07:13 PM
Thank you for validating pretty much all of my points.

And a great point msuffern, right on.

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 08:28 PM
To return to the topic at handThank you but that's not the topic of this thread.
how exactly does Microsoft and/or IE have a monopoly?Their operating system run son 90+% of all desktop computers.
A monopoly, to me, would be present if MS either made it difficult or penalized users for accessing the InternetThat's not the definition of a monopoly but that is how a monopoly could get in big trouble. That is one of the reasons why the US Justice Department, and several states, sued MS years ago.
You might as well say that Apple has monopolistic intentions in bundling Safari with OSX, or any of the Linux distributions in bundling their browser of choice (Konqueror, FF, etc).What you bundle with an OS is not the definition of a monopoly either. Plus, Apple and Linux do not run on 90+% of desktop computers.

There's bookkeeping software out there that runs just fine on other platforms.Again, not software that does payroll or offers similar services that QuickBooks offers. But Quickbooks must run on Windows because it dominates the desktop though, you are right, Intuit could make their software available on other systems, and I could go off on another tangent there but I won't.


The problem with your claims is that they're not falsifiable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiable). No matter how well-reasoned the counter-arguments are, you still will find a way to believe what you want to believe about the situation.
Please show me how these three paths in this thread cannot be verified as true or otherwise:
1) IE usage has dropped
2) Microsoft is a monopoly on the desktop
3) The EU has filed charges against Microsoft

In addition, these are not my claims. These are articles written by news gathering organizations and companies whose business it is to collect such data.

BoldUlysses
01-20-2009, 09:05 PM
Their operating system run son 90+% of all desktop computers.

Monopoly? False (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly). A monopoly requires intentionality above and beyond normal competitiveness. Therein lies the fallacy: You seem to think that because Windows runs on ~90% of all desktops it must be because MS engaged, and is currently engaging, in anti-competitive activity. This is a non-sequitur. High market share can result from a number of factors (ironically, including having a really good product: iPod, anyone?), monopolistic activity be only one of them. And while most would agree that MS has engaged in their own flavor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish) of anti-competitive activity, as you point out, their grip on the market is weakening, and the presence of many viable alternatives in the marketplace makes all this MS-is-evil prosletyzing kind of useless.

Most of us would agree that MS, on the whole, is incompetent and behind the times. But incompetent and evil is a different story, something your facts, as demonstrated above, do not prove.

Fumigator
01-20-2009, 09:43 PM
M$ has no monopoly on the desktop. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Pound for pound their desktop OS is inferior to the competition, which puts it in the opposite position of a monopoly. We should also keep in mind the EU is socialist-minded, so any kind of success by a single corporation needs to be punished.

And finally... just in case the horse 'aint dead yet, your wife has a couple of solid choices to free herself of the monopolistic abuse at the hands of M$:

Peachtree Accounting. Been around for years and years on Mac, full payroll services. I used this software 10 years ago for a while, and played with Quickbooks for about a month in 2004; I would say Peachtree 10 years ago did more than Quickbooks did 5 years ago. Today, they both probably do everything you would ever dream of needing to do for a company under 20 employees.

And because you are undoubtedly going to come up with some reason that Peachtree Accounting can't be used, There's MYOB. Native to Mac, full payroll services and can be expanded to mid-to-large sized companies. Comes with Quickbooks-to-MYOB conversion tool.

Surprise surprise, MYOB won't work for you either. Here:

More choices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_accounting_software)

Surely you can avoid using M$ products in this era of personal computing.

Oh and p.s. Quickbooks for Mac VERSION 2009 is new for 2009; versions 2005 through 2007 have been out for a few years. Do you have any other inaccurate facts to bolster your points? Or can we quit with the silliness? I have no idea why I'm even bothering to respond; I must be really bored. (Yep I just checked, and I am indeed quite bored.)

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 10:48 PM
Monopoly? False (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly). A monopoly requires intentionality above and beyond normal competitiveness.The first line in your own link says this:

In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos , alone or single + polein , to sell) exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.
You seem to think that because Windows runs on ~90% of all desktops it must be because MS engaged, and is currently engaging, in anti-competitive activity.So you are wrong as per your own link. In fact, I don't know what you quoted because that quote is not on that page at all.
their grip on the market is weakening, and the presence of many viable alternatives in the marketplace makes all this MS-is-evil prosletyzing kind of useless.On the desktop it has slightly but they still dominate. With IE, it's dropped quite a bit as shown.


Most of us would agree that MS, on the whole, is incompetent and behind the times. But incompetent and evil is a different story, something your facts, as demonstrated above, do not prove.Do you disagree with the US Justice Department's finding? Do you disagree with the EUs $899 million dollar fine recently? Also, remember that I did not supply the facts, I only supplied the story. The EU is claiming the facts.

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 10:55 PM
M$ has no monopoly on the desktop. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.So you are disagreeing with the EU that is making that claim?
Pound for pound their desktop OS is inferior to the competition, which puts it in the opposite position of a monopoly.Absolutely false! Quality of product has nothing to do with determining if something is a monopoly.
We should also keep in mind the EU is socialist-minded, so any kind of success by a single corporation needs to be punished.Agree! However, didn't the Justice Department make the same charges against MS? That it is a monopoly?


Surely you can avoid using M$ products in this era of personal computing.
If the best you can do is drag my wife into this then I don't know what to say. We're already off topic times 3.

Apostropartheid
01-20-2009, 10:56 PM
Microsoft fails some of the rest of the criteria, such as lack of competition and forceful barriers to new entrants into the field.

I do disagree with the EU's fine, along with the US Justice Department's. Power != righteousness. Look what happened with Stalin. It's not *quite* the same thing, obviously.

BoldUlysses
01-20-2009, 11:05 PM
So you're refuting my argument by using my definition of monopoly? If you agree with that definition, we can apply that to the situation at hand:


A monopoly exists when a specific individual or enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.

Specific individual or enterprise: Microsoft
Particular product or service: OS market

So, substituting our specifics into the definition, we could say:


A monopoly exists when Microsoft has sufficient control over the OS market to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to the OS market.

So to take it a step further, does MS control the desktop market to the degree that they prevent other companies from entering it? From succeeding in it? To restate my point above, MS has great market share but it does not necessarily follow that this is a monopoly. For a monopoly to exist, based on our definition above, it takes active anti-competitive action.


Do you disagree with the US Justice Department's finding? Do you disagree with the EUs $899 million dollar fine recently?

Yes, I do (*gasp*). The proof is in the results (and this is arguable): It isn't the punitive action by the EU that's breaking MS's stranglehold on the market, it the quality of the product itself. People are switching to other OSs not because they think to themselves, "Gee, MS has a big share of the market. I should switch just because of that." No--they switch because the other OSs are simply better. And if they don't think so, they won't.

drhowarddrfine
01-20-2009, 11:16 PM
United States vs Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Microsoft_antitrust_case)

United States v. Microsoft was a set of consolidated civil actions filed against Microsoft Corporation on May 18, 1998 by the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) and 20 U.S. states. Joel I. Klein was the lead prosecutor. The plaintiffs alleged that Microsoft abused monopoly power in its handling of operating system sales and web browser sales. The issue central to the case was whether Microsoft was allowed to bundle its flagship Internet Explorer (IE) web browser software with its Microsoft Windows operating system. Bundling them together is alleged to have been responsible for Microsoft's victory in the browser wars as every Windows user had a copy of Internet Explorer. It was further alleged that this unfairly restricted the market for competing web browsers...

Fumigator
01-20-2009, 11:27 PM
No, the best I did was not mention your wife's computer use, which I wouldn't classify as "dragging", and was only mentioned because you mentioned she's the one that uses QB--

The BEST I did was COMPLETELY DESTROY your claim that the Mac does not have perfectly acceptable and capable software to choose from. OH YEAH!! Soft jumper from the top of the arc and 2 POINTS-- SWISHHH!

See I can be silly too and it's pretty fun. :p:D:thumbsup:

VIPStephan
01-21-2009, 12:52 AM
I just saw a TV commercial for a computer magazine. There the only subjects they had was Windows: Vista Home, Professional, and what not. It suddenly became clear to me that Ė if I think about people I know Ė the average Joe probably doesnít even know that there are other choices than Windows, i. e. that there are other OSs such as Unix-like ones or Mac OS. This kinda does make Microsoft a monopoly, even if they donít suppress other companiesí efforts.

The one who controls the mass media is controlling the masses. And if the mass media doesnít talk about anything other than Windows, the masses will follow and only buy Microsoft products. And if you go to the average electronics store and buy a computer, Windows is usually installed by default already and you just buy it unless you intentionally say that you donít want it (at least where I live).

And the average user may feel limited but doesnít know of any alternatives (or doesnít have a choice because the company isnít listening to his suggestions for alternatives) so they may feel that MS is a monopoly. Plus, you canít change the habits of a life time. If an average person has worked with Windows all life long they wonít switch to something else voluntarily. Iíve seen that with a friendís girlfriend. Heís trying to convince her to get a Mac but she wonít because it feels strange and unfamiliar to her.

drhowarddrfine
01-21-2009, 01:06 AM
@VIPStephan, this is true. (In the meantime, Gartner Group reports 50% of college students now use a Mac. I know that at my son's school, 100% do except my son and his roommate, oddly enough).



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