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View Full Version : <&nbsp> vs. Divs



ajhauser
02-26-2008, 04:00 AM
Hey guys, I have been working with websites for some time now and I was wondering if a few of you could weigh in on something. Here is an example of some text on a site I just finished up here (http://www.genuinefriendship.com/):



<p>This is the end of a normal paragraph and just simple text...</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p class="bold2">Why People Feel "Disconnected"</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p>And then this is where the text will continue from this point after the header blah blah...</p>


What I am wondering is whether o not it matters that i use so many "<p>&nbsp;</p>" - do you think I would be better of creating a div buffer to space out the text instead of repeating 4 no break space (or whatever they mean)?

The site is W3C validated and so technically there is no functionality issue here - I just want to know if there is a "proper" or "preferred" choice among veteran/experienced developers. Obviously my first concern was everything displaying correctly, but since that's all a-ok I'm curious what other methods people are using.

It's a simple question I know, but I'm very interested in learning more about others real-world experiences. There are so many things I keep learning and re-learning in an attempt to do things professionally, so it is important. Thanks very much,
AJ

_Aerospace_Eng_
02-26-2008, 04:13 AM
Neither. Just give a bottom margin to the paragraphs. CSS is for presentation, HTML is for structure.

ajhauser
02-26-2008, 04:29 AM
But that would apply the same space under the text to EVERY paragraph, you know? If you look on the page there are certain spaces between the end of some paragraphs and the next header that need to be larger than normal.

I'm wondering a way to do this without adding a top margin to the header too.
Thanks for the quick response,
AJ

_Aerospace_Eng_
02-26-2008, 04:31 AM
But that would apply the same space under the text to EVERY paragraph, you know? If you look on the page there are certain spaces between the end of some paragraphs and the next header that need to be larger than normal.

I'm wondering a way to do this without adding a top margin to the header too.
Thanks for the quick response,
AJ

And? Just give classes to the elements and assign them different margins. This poor design on your part. If you needed the extra space you should have used margins in the first place.

ajhauser
02-26-2008, 04:32 AM
CSS is for presentation, HTML is for structure

In your sig you have a link to an article on divs over tables that I read. Aren't tables HTML, and aren't you suggesting using divs for the structure of sites or do you mean something else by that?

ajhauser
02-26-2008, 04:36 AM
Maybe a better question would be, in what instance is a

"<p>&nbsp;</p>" or even just "&nbsp;"

useful or necessary?

_Aerospace_Eng_
02-26-2008, 04:45 AM
Tables are used for data thats it, not page layout. As to your second question, there isn't one. Use margins in CSS to create vertical or horizontal space between elements. You should learn to use semantics (http://brainstormsandraves.com/articles/semantics/structure/) when coding. This you have not done at all in your current site.

harbingerOTV
02-26-2008, 04:49 AM
<p class="first">This is the end of a normal paragraph and just simple text...</p>
<p class="bold2">Why People Feel "Disconnected"</p>
<p>And then this is where the text will continue from this point after the header blah blah...</p>




p {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 12px 0;
}
p.first {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 40px 0;
}

p.bold2 {
font-weight: 900;
}

rmedek
02-26-2008, 04:56 AM
<p>And then this is where the text will continue from this point after the header blah blah...</p>



Where's the header you mention? This is the where the idea behind standards-based web design comes into play; that is, HTML is for content and CSS is for presentation.

Mark up the content as what it is, and the question of where to apply the CSS is more easily answered:


<p>This is the end of a normal paragraph and just simple text...</p>

<h2>Why People Feel "Disconnected"</h2>
<p>And then this is where the text will continue from this point after the header blah blah...</p>


h2 {
margin: 1.5em 0 0 0;
}

p {
margin: 1em 0;
}

Hope this helps…

ajhauser
02-26-2008, 05:01 AM
Hmmm... yeah I have never heard of web semantics - I will have to apply that to the next site. Are there any browser or bandwidth advantages that come along with designing semantically, such as faster load times, or is it just good practice?

This is great though thanks, this was the purpose of the post - I want to do things right.

harbringerOTV thank you for the nice post as well - that is what I was thinking too.

rmedek I am using the tag "<p class="bold2">" for my headers, but you are saying to use the "h" tags so they are more easily identifiable? That would make sense.

I see you put "1.5em" in the code you added in - could you explain that a bit? I have looked into using ems as a way to make fonts more uniform across many browsers - but I do not understand exactly their use. ACtually, I don't understand them at all - which probably means I should be using this instead of point size I'm guessing.

harbingerOTV
02-26-2008, 05:12 AM
I actually didn't look at your site. rmedek putting the h2 in there is best. It's a heading yet a sub heading of the pages main idea.

http://www.codingforums.com/showpost.php?p=606855&postcount=9

something I wrote earlier.

In your case the p.bold2 is really such a heading.

As for em's, I'll leave that for someone else to chime in. I need to hit the hay ;) if this is still going when i awake I'll chime in.

rmedek
02-26-2008, 05:18 AM
rmedek I am using the tag "<p class="bold2">" for my headers, but you are saying to use the "h" tags so they are more easily identifiable? That would make sense.

I'm saying use the "h" tag because the "h" stands for "heading." :)

If you have a heading, use a heading tag; if you have a table, use a table tag; if you have a paragraph, use a paragraph tag; if you have a list, use a list tag; etc., etc.… A list of pretty much all available HTML elements can be found here: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp

I've found that when people are starting w/ CSS they spend way too much time worrying about how things will look and thus gloss over the most obvious part of standards-based web design: HTML is for content. CSS is for presentation. HTML is the noun; CSS is the adjective.

As far as using ems, well…one thing at a time. ;) But this article is a classic and should get you started: http://clagnut.com/blog/348/

rmedek
02-26-2008, 05:26 AM
If you have a heading, use a heading tag; if you have a table, use a table tag; if you have a paragraph, use a paragraph tag; if you have a list, use a list tag; etc., etc.… A list of pretty much all available HTML elements can be found here: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp

You know, I want to clarify this a bit.

The reason why you would use a heading tag is not so much that the piece of text is a heading. I mean, it is, but more importantly, by using the heading tag you are defining the text as a heading element.

This:


<p>Here is some text.</p>

…defines the text as a paragraph.

This:


<p class="bold">Here is some text.</p>

…defines the text as a paragraph.

This:


<p class="heading">Here is some text.</p>

…defines the text as a paragraph.

This:


<div class="hugeboldheading">Here is some text.</div>

…defines the text as nothing at all, other than it happens to be in a block-level element. (<div> and <span> are empty elements with no semantic value)

This:


<h2>Here is some text.</h2>

…defines the text as a second-level heading.

Okay, got that out of my system. :)

ajhauser
02-26-2008, 05:30 AM
HA! I figured it was a whole other can of worms - well thank you all for your very helpful posts. I will check out those links on ems. I have to re-ask though - the main advantage(s) of designing semantically is just that it makes sense?

I mean, it makes sense to me now that you say it and with those examples rmedek. It's like using the proper punctuation in an essay for the simple fact that it is correct - you wouldn't use an "!" to end a statement, etc.

But are there other advantages as well? Bandwidth? Anything?

rmedek
02-26-2008, 05:34 AM
But are there other advantages as well? Bandwidth? Anything?

Google "web standards" and duck. Better speed, faster maintenance, improved accessibility, platform independence, etc.

ajhauser
02-26-2008, 05:37 AM
duck?

rmedek
02-26-2008, 05:39 AM
Because there's a lot written about it. You will get a lot of results when you search Google.

ajhauser
02-26-2008, 05:42 AM
Oh oh oh - hahaha, my fault, you mean it like "move". I just re-read that and started laughing.

I was thinking, "what in the hell is "duck" and how does it apply to web standards, and why have I never heard of it?!"

Good Lord I am fried - thanks for all your help my friend!

Arbitrator
02-26-2008, 09:07 AM
Maybe a better question would be, in what instance is a

"<p>&nbsp;</p>" or even just "&nbsp;"

useful or necessary?The first is semantically incorrect since the non‐breaking space (formally, “NO‐BREAK SPACE”) character doesn’t constitute a paragraph.

The character is useful and correct when you want to prevent the line‐breaking behavior that you would get with a normal space. For example, you might want to disallow a line‐break within a term consisting of the words “United” and “Nations”; thus, you would get United&nbsp;Nations.


I have to re-ask though - the main advantage(s) of designing semantically is just that it makes sense?

I mean, it makes sense to me now that you say it and with those examples rmedek. It's like using the proper punctuation in an essay for the simple fact that it is correct - you wouldn't use an "!" to end a statement, etc.

But are there other advantages as well? Bandwidth? Anything?Semantically accurate code is potentially useful in reading and using code by both humans (e.g., authors and maintainers) and computers (e.g., data mining technologies, such as search engines, and accessibility tools). The advantages become more apparent with correct use of more complex elements such as those used to construct tables. In the case of authors, it also allows easy or easier targeting of elements via selectors or scripts. It’s also simply the correct way to use the HTML language.

Since you mentioned bandwidth, yes, it could provide a minor benefit in that area if the extra information is included in an external style sheet; tools that parse HTML but don’t need the style sheet won’t have to retrieve the extra code that was added only for visual purposes nor will your server have to serve it.

VIPStephan
02-26-2008, 03:04 PM
I have to re-ask though - the main advantage(s) of designing semantically is just that it makes sense?

I mean, it makes sense to me now that you say it and with those examples rmedek. It's like using the proper punctuation in an essay for the simple fact that it is correct - you wouldn't use an "!" to end a statement, etc.

But are there other advantages as well? Bandwidth? Anything?

You know, you should think of this: HTML was actually created to do just this: Give plain text a meaning. I.e. if you put a text file (file extension “.txt”) on the web nothing tells you what text is denoting what. Sure, people can differentiate by using simple graphic effects but what do blind people do? They rely on a program that reads the text and if there’s no markup telling the program what the text means (i.e. is it a headline or a paragraph, etc.), they can’t make any sense out of it. Same applies to other programs that interpret such documents. For example, you can copy and paste formatted text from a word document into a WYSIWYG editor and it should copy the formatting (i.e. markup) as well. I’ve done this, copied from Word documents to TinyMCE and FCKeditor and I was annoyed by the people creating those documents because they could have saved me a lot of work if they just had formatted the document with proper headlines, lists, and paragraphs, etc.

That's the issue. Programs don’t interpret bold and underlined text as headline, we are assuming this from our visual experience. Applications see it as bold and underlined text unless you actually tell it that this is a headline.

So, let’s all think about the basics and why HTML was invented. It was created to give plain text some meaning. It was just some early designers that used the limited possibilities at that time to force some style to websites by all means (using tables and images) and soon people forgot (and new ones never learned) what HTML and the web actually is about…

Semantics are among the most basic things in HTML. Unfortunately barely any source/tutorial states this and just passes on the bad practice right away.

effpeetee
02-26-2008, 03:45 PM
This may help.

http://brainstormsandraves.com/articles/semantics/structure/

Frank

Apostropartheid
02-26-2008, 04:30 PM
I've never seen an instance where I would use a non-breaking space. Although Arbitrator's (wow, I thought he died) example is fine, I personally wouldn't want the word "Nations" hanging out into the gutter: it just looks weird.

Donkey
02-26-2008, 06:59 PM
As I'm a bit of a pedant I like to see sentences within a paragraph with two spaces at the start. I think it makes reading easier. So I use one &nbsp; after hitting the space bar. I was taught at school "one space after a comma, two spaces after a full stop" (period in the US).

Basscyst
02-26-2008, 08:16 PM
As I'm a bit of a pedant I like to see sentences within a paragraph with two spaces at the start. I think it makes reading easier. So I use one &nbsp; after hitting the space bar. I was taught at school "one space after a comma, two spaces after a full stop" (period in the US).

Funny, I was taught that too. I recently had a mentor tell me it was no longer standard practice when typing, I still do it. Even in this post. Heh.

Apostropartheid
02-26-2008, 08:40 PM
Yes, but don't we have text-indent to that for us?

Technically typographic conventions have it that you either space in between paragraphs or indent it, but both are excessive. Apparently.

ajhauser
02-27-2008, 12:38 AM
Yeah, in response to VIPStephen's post - I was one of those johnny-come-latelys that never learned the real advantages to designing semantically. With Dreamweaver tutorials and HTML for Dummies I plodded along and I'm just now realizing that pretty much everything I have done has been, from a semantics standpoint, complete crap.

OOPS.

I can't thank you guys enough for shedding some light on this for me, and to hear that "HTML is used for this and here is why, CSS is used for this and here is why" makes complete sense.

I never thought I would revert and code by hand again, but lately that's all I do - I picked up many bad habits from Dreamweaver. I guess you could compare it to most available code generators for different things, they don't come up with specific, clean code because they are set up to be generic and work for everyone. Kind of how you can't expect a suit from Value City to fit like a tailor made jacket at Men's Warehouse. (Granted... I don't own one from either place... but that's beside the point...)

My next topic of interest is the EM - I see Cyanlight you have in your signature "Try resizing text there to see the AWESOME POWER OF THE EM!!!". I have some reading to do first but then I'll probably start another thread... I hope you'll chime in. How would I go about changing the size of the font on your blog? You mean with/through the browser?

Thanks to everyone who posted something helpful, it's a breath of fresh air to speak with mature people for a change - I was waiting for some 12 yr. old to chime in with "yo i use dreemweever like all the time it is the coolist and always duz code perrfekt and u r all stupid for wasteng time by hand stupid morons pwnzors noobmeet".

Thanks:)

Donkey
02-27-2008, 11:06 AM
Yes, but don't we have text-indent to that for us?
I'm not talking about spacing between paragraphs, rather spacing between sentences inside paragraphs. The easiest and most semantic way IMO is to use &nbsp;.


Basscyst, as one pedant to another I'm glad to see someone else is holding up the standards. I too have been told that it's no longer common practice, but it does make large paragraphs much easier to read and I think that those of us who maintain this high standard are improving the usability of our sites. In a world where it will soon be common practice for students to answer their exam questions in "txt spk" we must never give an inch to this continual "dumbing down" of our language.

abduraooft
02-27-2008, 11:40 AM
With Dreamweaver tutorials and HTML for Dummies I plodded along and I'm just now realizing that pretty much everything I have done has been, from a semantics standpoint, complete crap.

Wait... did you mean How C.R.A.P is Your Site Design? (http://www.thinkvitamin.com/features/design/how-crap-is-your-site-design) :)

Apostropartheid
02-27-2008, 05:14 PM
I believe that's style more than an actual "dumbing down" of the English language, but I know what you mean. I saw the most hilariously bad poster on slavery in a History classroom once:

How would U like 2 be Treated like This?
Eugh, what happened to typography and grammar?
And spelling. It's actually amazing how few people know what an em dash is and when to use it. Or, more commonly, when an initialism is not an acronym.

@ ajhauser, yes, through the browser. Vew > Text size. =)

rmedek
02-27-2008, 05:16 PM
I'm not talking about spacing between paragraphs, rather spacing between sentences inside paragraphs. The easiest and most semantic way IMO is to use &nbsp;.

I too have been told that it's no longer common practice, but it does make large paragraphs much easier to read and I think that those of us who maintain this high standard are improving the usability of our sites. In a world where it will soon be common practice for students to answer their exam questions in "txt spk" we must never give an inch to this continual "dumbing down" of our language.

Just so you know, by doing this you are contributing to the "dumbing down" of our language. ;)

The "two spaces" rule is a convention created during the typewriter era. Before then, typographers would manually use a slightly larger spacer after a full stop than the space between words to help improve readability. On a typewriter, every letter and the spacebar was a fixed width, so the "rule" of using two spaces after sentences was introduced.

On modern-day computers, however, the larger space after a period is built into the font. Using two spaces is not only outdated (unless you're typing on a mechanical typewriter) but also defeating the purpose—it's actually adding more space than the original type designer intended.

Apostropartheid
02-27-2008, 05:19 PM
[...] it's actually adding more space than the original typographer intended.
When you're typing something out, doesn't that make you the typographer and the creator of the typeface...the type designer?

rmedek
02-27-2008, 05:25 PM
When you're typing something out, doesn't that make you the typographer and the creator of the typeface...the type designer?

Er…yes, my bad. :o

I meant to say "type designer." :D

Basscyst
02-27-2008, 06:11 PM
I'm not talking about spacing between paragraphs, rather spacing between sentences inside paragraphs. The easiest and most semantic way IMO is to use &nbsp;.


Basscyst, as one pedant to another I'm glad to see someone else is holding up the standards. I too have been told that it's no longer common practice, but it does make large paragraphs much easier to read and I think that those of us who maintain this high standard are improving the usability of our sites. In a world where it will soon be common practice for students to answer their exam questions in "txt spk" we must never give an inch to this continual "dumbing down" of our language.

Oh don't get me wrong, I just do it out of habit. I don't put &nbsp's after my sentences. Thankfully the web completley ignores my old habit. :p

jerry62704
02-27-2008, 07:09 PM
A lot of web spiders look at the headings as important in rating a web site. If you have none, they only see text.

jerry62704
02-27-2008, 07:18 PM
ICAM. I hate it when a browser eats one of the spaces.

ajhauser
02-28-2008, 07:50 AM
Hey CyanLight - I went and did the View>text size swap and it looks uniform as I change things, but would you mind explaining the em advantage here? I don't doubt it exists, but if you could briefly spell it out for me I'd appreciate it.

This thread has been extremely helpful to me, thanks to all who posted.

VIPStephan
02-28-2008, 10:53 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Em_&#37;28typography%29

Donkey
02-28-2008, 11:18 AM
On modern-day computers, however, the larger space after a period is built into the font. Using two spaces is not only outdated (unless you're typing on a mechanical typewriter) but also defeating the purpose—it's actually adding more space than the original type designer intended.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't see how the font designer builds in the extra space after the full stop. I thought fonts were just groups of letters, so I assume you mean that word processing, DP and other programs using text add this facility. So the wishes of the original type designer aren't really relevant to the argument.

Anyway, I have seen no evidence visually of this extra space in all the years I have been using a computer, so at best it is probably 1.25 spaces instead of 2 which makes the difference so insignificant that it is pointless. Trust me, putting in that extra space makes the text much easier to read and improves the usability of your web site.

Apostropartheid
02-28-2008, 05:07 PM
Those that need larger font sizes can have the width of the page and images increase in size, too, which gives the larger letters more room to use. The larger images are quite a nice touch, I feel.

My happy birthday post! =D

rmedek
02-28-2008, 06:50 PM
I have seen no evidence visually of this extra space in all the years I have been using a computer, so at best it is probably 1.25 spaces instead of 2 which makes the difference so insignificant that it is pointless. Trust me, putting in that extra space makes the text much easier to read and improves the usability of your web site.

Maybe for you, but most style guides, typographers, graphic designers, copy editors, and type designers will disagree with you. Personally, I find it introduces "rivers" of white space that are distracting in long columns of text.

Watch: http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=112
Then read: http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/OneSpaceorTwo/OneSpaceorTwo03.html
And to top it off: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/spaces.html

Apostropartheid
02-28-2008, 11:02 PM
I think departing from convention probably won't end up with better reability. Even if it is because it's convention. People are used a smaller space for full stops. It just looks like a typo to me if you double-space it.

It actually takes me longer to read with two spaces. It takes longer for me to process it.

Donkey
02-29-2008, 10:52 AM
Fair enough, I am in a majority of 1 on this. :~) However I will persist in my anachronism because I prefer to see at a glance the difference between commas and full stops in text.

I still believe it's easier to read but perhaps only for me.

I just wonder why the two space rule was dropped originally, I suspect it is for faster typing. I put it down to sloppiness myself. Part of the slow death of the English language.

VIPStephan
02-29-2008, 11:33 AM
[…] Part of the slow death of the English language.

Funny how you English speaking people whine about the “death” of the English language while in Germany people whine about the depletion of the German language due to the increased usage of English terms and phrases (mixed with German to so-called Denglisch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denglisch)). Sometimes in German literature English is said to be a “simpler” language already due to simpler grammar etc. and I’m kind of amused that it’s still possible to derogate it yet more. :)

effpeetee
02-29-2008, 04:24 PM
What does it matter? I too used to be pedantic, but language is all about communication and it is necessarily living and evolving. My only existing moan is about the people who through sheer laziness/sloppiness, can't be bothered to speak clearly, but I suppose that too is evolving.

Frank

Apostropartheid
02-29-2008, 08:32 PM
Funny how you English speaking people whine about the “death” of the English language while in Germany people whine about the depletion of the German language due to the increased usage of English terms and phrases (mixed with German to so-called Denglisch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denglisch)). Sometimes in German literature English is said to be a “simpler” language already due to simpler grammar etc. and I’m kind of amused that it’s still possible to derogate it yet more. :)

Stephan, have you ever heard a chav talk? *winces*

It's like listening to sentences being cut up, simplified then pasted wherever one wants it to be.

What does "blad" mean anyway?!

speedbird
03-01-2008, 02:42 AM
After this detour into the detail of typography I thought that the original poster, ajhauser, might find http://www.htmldog.com/ a useful source for getting to grips with html/css and semantic code in a very readable format.

[Ems rule btw. :)]

Arbitrator
03-02-2008, 06:36 AM
I've never seen an instance where I would use a non-breaking space. Although Arbitrator's (wow, I thought he died) example is fine, I personally wouldn't want the word "Nations" hanging out into the gutter: it just looks weird.No, I haven’t died; I’ve merely been busy and have found a number of other interests. Honestly speaking, I’ve also become tired of troubleshooting people’s browser‐specific MSIE6 issues; many of the threads on this forum revolve around just that.

Other, perhaps better, examples of where non‐breaking spaces make for more elegant typography are between terms and version numbers (e.g., HTML 4.01); between terms where one or more of the parts don’t constitute traditionally independent words or consist of very short terms (e.g., New York, vitamin C, and Samurai X); or between numbers and units (e.g., 600 seconds, 1 MiB, 10 AM).

(In addition, I would find it useful when put after “e.g.” in, for example, this post. However, since vBulletin seems to strip or convert non‐breaking space characters, it’s too much trouble.)


As I'm a bit of a pedant I like to see sentences within a paragraph with two spaces at the start. I think it makes reading easier. So I use one &nbsp; after hitting the space bar. I was taught at school "one space after a comma, two spaces after a full stop" (period in the US).Assuming that I’ve read them correctly, the CSS2.1/3 Text specifications have an easier and more flexible solution for this in the form of the white-space: pre-wrap declaration. CSS3 Text also has the white-space-collapse: preserve declaration. I’m not sure if they would force an author to avoid literal line‐breaks though.

Using a CSS method would make this easier since you wouldn’t need a character reference; you could just use two space characters. The rendering could relatively easily be changed (via scripting) between the collapsing (i.e., one space) and non‐collapsing (i.e., two space) whitespace models depending upon user preference.

A significant problem is, naturally, browser support.


Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't see how the font designer builds in the extra space after the full stop. I thought fonts were just groups of letters, so I assume you mean that word processing, DP and other programs using text add this facility. So the wishes of the original type designer aren't really relevant to the argument.I believe that font authors can add instructions into a font file that tell a renderer how to align and space characters among other things. (Was it called “hinting”?) I can’t go into detail though since I don’t know much about the process. The question one has to ask, though, is, “Do Web browsers support these instructions?”


I just wonder why the two space rule was dropped originally, I suspect it is for faster typing.I would hazard a guess that it’s because most people have no trouble reading sentences that are demarcated by a single space, thus, the second space is deemed unnecessary.

Once support for the CSS font-face at‐rule becomes more common, you will probably be able to use a single custom‐width space to achieve what you want in addition to the CSS method outlined previously in this post. “Faster typing” will no longer be an issue.


Part of the slow death of the English language.I’d call it part of the “evolution” of the language. I don’t believe that there’s any formal and widely‐accepted organization that determines what is correct English, so nothing can really be called “incorrect”, in general.

ajhauser
03-11-2008, 08:04 PM
Thanks Speedbird - heading there now.
AJ

jerry62704
03-11-2008, 08:59 PM
You ask if HTML (tables) are to be avoided. Yes and no. If the purpose of the table is to format the page, then don't do it. For example. You have a table that holds an image in the upper left corner, some logo in the middle and a flag in the right top corner. Further, there is an empty row to space the content down. Finally, you join the three cells to one for the content.

That is an example of a table used for the sole purpose of positioning stuff on a page. That is what you don't want to do. Use CSS to position things.

OTOH, say you have a table with a train schedule in it. That is reasonable to do as a table as you are putting out tabular data. That would not be done with CSS. However, you could make the train numbers bold using CSS.

In the old days I worked with a guy that would nest table in table four deep solely to use their spacing and background color to enclose the web page in a rainbow. Cute, but not the best way given the overhead of downloading the tables to get the effect.

Ultragames
03-11-2008, 11:38 PM
ajhauser,

One thing to know about using CSS rather than styling with HTML is that it is so much more powerful. You can change the style of hundred or thousands of pages by changing one CSS document. See the CSS Zen Garden (http://www.csszengarden.com/)for an amazing example of that.

In addition to that, you can make different styles for normal screens, mobile screens, printing, projectors, screen readers, etc.

In addition to that, you can not only effect many many pages, but many many elements on one page. Imagine having a huge table (yes a table, which is just fine for an Excel style table of information, but NOT for design layout,) would you want to put the style for each cell in each TD? NO WAY! Use CSS.

effpeetee
03-12-2008, 06:58 PM
This may help.

http://blog.tn38.net/archives/2005/05/what_are_semant.html

http://exitfegs.co.uk/Sources.html.

Frank

ajhauser
03-14-2008, 02:21 AM
Hey guys I was looking all over today for an answer to this with no luck. I know this is a little off topic but since this thread is heavily based on fonts I was hoping someone could help.

http://temp1.hangnailproductions.com/font_icons.jpg

WHAT in the world do these different font icons mean in my font folder? I have duplicates with different icons in there and I want to clean everything out except exactly what I need. Can someone please briefly explain 1-4?

Thanks much, this thread has been an excellent source of information for me.
-AJ

Apostropartheid
03-14-2008, 05:44 PM
They're to do with the digital font type extension. I only know what the latter two are: OpenType and TrueType.

ajhauser
03-14-2008, 10:13 PM
Thanks Cyan, that helps a little, I think that Open Type means in PShop there are different letters you can switch between or something?

Anyone else have any information they can add?

Thanks.

jcdevelopment
03-14-2008, 10:27 PM
I believe the first two are upper and lower case's

VIPStephan
03-14-2008, 10:33 PM
I believe the first two are upper and lower case's

Sorry for being off topic but have you ever heard of the greengrocers’ apostrophe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Greengrocers.27_apostrophes)?

Arbitrator
03-15-2008, 10:24 AM
http://temp1.hangnailproductions.com/font_icons.jpg

WHAT in the world do these different font icons mean in my font folder? I have duplicates with different icons in there and I want to clean everything out except exactly what I need. Can someone please briefly explain 1-4?I can try to provide some minimalist information. Don’t take this as the gospel though since I’m not particularly knowledgeable when it comes to font file formats and their inner workings.


The uppercase letter “A” icon is used for bitmap fonts. These fonts aren’t anti‐aliased so they tend to have jagged edges, particularly at smaller font sizes. Their file name extension is *.fon. This seems to be the least desirable font format in terms of general appearance.
The lowercase letter “a” icon is used for PostScript Type 1 fonts. They’re associated with *.pfm files; a *.pfb file is, apparently, required to view or install a *.pfm file, but Windows doesn’t provide *.pfm files with this icon. Based upon an article that I read [1], the letter “a” stands for “Adobe”.
The “O” icon is used to represent OpenType font files which can have an *.otf or *.ttf file extension. The aforementioned article says that this format is advantageous because it exhibits cross‐operating system interoperability.
The icon with dual “T”s is used for TrueType fonts with a *.ttf file extension. This seems to be the most ubiquitous font file format.

Resources

http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/fonts/a/02wfb_digital.htm



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