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View Full Version : Vml



landon11
11-21-2002, 04:58 PM
How come I cannot view a VML file. if it has:



<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml">


then it freezes up my browser. I have IE 6 and I know IE started
supporting VML with 5.0.

[Edit]
Well maybe not with only that but when I try:



<v:shape style="top: 0; left: 0; width: 100mm; height: 100mm;"
coordsize="3 3" />

brothercake
11-22-2002, 05:36 PM
did you add the vml behaviour in your style declaration:

<style type="text/css">

v\:* { behavior: url(#default#VML); }

</style>

zoobie
11-25-2002, 06:56 PM
Yep...gotta have both.:D

I'm looking around for a VML forum...Anyone know of any? Thanks

jkd
11-25-2002, 07:09 PM
Not to start anything, but why not invest your talent in something that has a future, such as SVG?

There are at least 15 different implementations of permutations of SVG, while IE is the only VML renderer. Not to mention SVG 1.1 is a Proposed Recommendation (and SVG 1.0 is a Recommendation), and there is a SVG 1.2 Working Draft published.

Cross-platform non-Flash vector graphics, in a powerful, standardized form, and you're going to throw it all away for VML? I don't understand.

brothercake
11-25-2002, 08:57 PM
I fell compelled to respond ...

... academically, you;re absolutely right. But the current reality, like it or loath it, is that roughly 80% of users have native VML support with no plugins or any extra effort on their part. That's a significant metric; for now ;)

zoobie
11-25-2002, 09:43 PM
Yep...I just read that IE5 and 6 account for more than 90% of users but I think Windows 95 up is needed to work. Vector graphics are here to stay whether it's VML or whatever. It's cool not to need a plugin for IE. :)

jkd
11-25-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by zoobie
It's cool not to need a plugin for IE. :)

What about the 10% you are neglecting entirely? 10% of a bazillion people is still quite a lot. This certainly isn't helping the future of the web either, by tying your websites into one product exclusively (Windows and Internet Explorer).

zoobie
11-26-2002, 12:11 AM
Well, I think the point is that vector graphics one way or another will soon be implemented into all browsers. It's just that IE happens to be the most widely used and VML is supported now rather than waiting years.

As far as not including the 10%, I'm sure NS and Opera users are now quite used to sites made for IE not displaying or even functioning properly in their browsers.

I've just made some really wild crazy stuff with VML...It rocks! The future is now! Oh yeah...sorry...You can't see them...heh heh ;)

jkd
11-26-2002, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by zoobie
and VML is supported now rather than waiting years.

SVG is supported now as well. That is no excuse.

The only rational argument one could possibly make for VML is that 80%+ of surfers can view it.

However, when faced against SVG, VML is inferior with respect to implementations, openness, standardization, and at least in my opinion, power. (SVG is *extremely* powerful because of input from the organizations who decided on the standard. It is robust, but simple. Even mobile devices profiles exist!).
That 80% argument becomes redundant when you have a 100% figure to contend with.

You are only cheating yourself and the people you are ignoring by resorting to VML over SVG. If you want vector graphics so badly, why not resort to Flash? I could live with that, but VML? yuck.

brothercake
11-26-2002, 05:13 PM
Flash? Flash???

I thought swear words were starred out in this forum ;)


Hmm .. anyway. SVG is infinitely better than VML - no doubt about it. But ... please don't take offense because none is intended ... jason, your puritanical attidude to IE proprietary coding is a luxury which you would not be able to afford if you had to make a living doing this.

jkd
11-26-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by brothercake
Hmm .. anyway. SVG is infinitely better than VML - no doubt about it. But ... please don't take offense because none is intended ... jason, your puritanical attidude to IE proprietary coding is a luxury which you would not be able to afford if you had to make a living doing this.

:: grumble grumble ::

I'll concede to that.

TNO
09-30-2005, 12:45 PM
hmmm..... Food for thought:

I'm sure most people have a website thats designed for a specific interest, and thus appeals to a certain group of people. If my website could appeal to a whopping 10% of internet users, I would probably die happy. According to recent stats: (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp)

2005 IE 6 IE 5 Ffox Moz NN7 O 8 O 7
September 69.7% 5.8% 18.0% 2.3% 0.4% 0.9% 0.2%

If most people still use IE6 whats really the standard? SVG may be the future, but its not the now. If the avg person wants to see some kind of graph on your page, they would probably be pissed off with the 5mb download first. (I was).

It is harder to do some things in VML (Text manipulation), but the ability to copy and paste into the Office suite is an excellent bonus. Plus I can use VML in Outlook.

IE can render VML better than SVG. Plus it can render most things better as well. (Its just a shame its stuck in a proprietary technology mode.)

Sample VML render:
http://www.premiumwanadoo.com/dhteumeuleu/dhtml/vmlstar.html

To sum it up. SVG holds alot of promise in the future, but right now it doesn't have too much appeal. Popularity defines the standard as I see it. Plus General appeal isn't usually the goal in a special interest website. So I'll stick with VML today, and see where SVG leads us.

3d VML Mario:
http://gunnm.is.free.fr/3D/vml.htm

jkd
09-30-2005, 02:29 PM
You just dug a 3 year old thread. Congratulations. And in these 3 years, Opera 8, and Firefox 1.5 both offer native support for SVG, and work porting KSVG to Safari is also underway.

TNO
09-30-2005, 05:25 PM
Thats good news.
I can look at viable alternatives for some of my projects.
But regardless of the native support, until the popularity of Firefox gets a little greater than what it is (or the popularity of IE gets alot lower than 70%), VML will still be a major player in Vector graphics.

jkd
09-30-2005, 07:37 PM
Thats good news.
I can look at viable alternatives for some of my projects.
But regardless of the native support, until the popularity of Firefox gets a little greater than what it is (or the popularity of IE gets alot lower than 70%), VML will still be a major player in Vector graphics.

Native support in Firefox and Opera, with plans for Safari. Full support in IE via plugin.

99.9% percent of browsers is better than IE-only (no VML plugins exist for other browsers).

KC-Luck
09-30-2005, 09:47 PM
how do i become a Super Moderator too :)

wenger
11-14-2005, 06:15 PM
VML is a standards based specification as is SVG. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of internet users use IE... I realize developers by and large hate microsoft and hate even more the fact that many users continue to use Microsoft products such as IE. Why is it that no one from the mozilla/firefox or opera crowds have taken the time to write a VML plugin for their platforms... they'd rather push a standard that is not consistent with the technology that is embedded and available to 70-80% of users.

It amazes me that Firefox/Mozilla and Opera defenders will complain about development practices that leave the 10-30% of firefox (and other non standard browsers) users out in the cold but will not take the steps that make it easier for end users to switch. It appears to be the opinion of this crowd that the rest of the world should change not them. Why not support VML and other things that make it easier for users to use Firefox as is instead of pushing on site developers to change their practices.

I love firefox but is it my "regular" browser - nope and it probably never will be given the current growth and adoption rate and more importantly, the number of sites that don't work properly/consistently with Firefox as they do with IE. Until that changes I'll be predominantly an IE user.

I'll probably get a lot of flame on that one about the superiority of technology in Firefox - but I believe it is completely irrelevant unless users change in large numbers... and they won't until their is a compelling reason to do so AND they can do all of the things they need to with an alternative. That means that the public at large doesn't hate Microsoft enough to make that a compelling reason to change. Many user's like myself would probably change to an alternative but it becomes untenable when regularly visited and required sites won't work due to technological differences. In order for Firefox and/or other browsers to be succesful - they must work and in a consistent manner with how IE works.

And about Flash... how is one companies proprietary stuff less bad than anothers? How can one rip on MSFT and VML (which is a standard) and at the same time promote flash?

jkd
11-14-2005, 07:11 PM
VML is a standards based specification as is SVG.

Interesting thread to dig up. But you are quite mistaken, VML never underwent any sort of standardization process.
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-VML-19980513


This document is a NOTE made available by the W3 Consortium for discussion only. This indicates no endorsement of its content, nor that the Consortium has, is, or will be allocating any resources to the issues addressed by the NOTE.



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